Problem with ZF electronic engine controls

[MapisM]

Porto, and you said in your post #34 "There’s bit too much over thinking going on"?!?
From my part, the previous comments were just for the sake of debating, not because I'm doubting that the more logical culprit in this case is the f/b station.

I'm not saying that your train of thought is wrong, but how realistic do you think it can be, based on the scenario Deleted User presented us?
If you fancy competing for a virtual beer, my bet is that the new unit (possibly after calibration, if required) will solve the problem for good.
I'll gladly stay thirsty and let you have that beer if eventually the fault will have anything to see with the control unit in the e/r.

 

[MapisM]

No, it's impossible to get the reported symptoms from a bad connection at the gearbox FNR solenoid valve.

Mike is getting reverse when he asks for neutral - that can't be caused by a bad connection on the g'box solenoid. A bad connection can only cause reduced voltage on a solenoid when you ask for full voltage.; it cant cause +24v on the reverse solenoid when you ask for 0v. So the fault is further up the system, mostly like the throttle head as discussed above.

Yup, all agreed. A fault in the g/box valves (or on its electrical connection) could only result in a missing engagement/disengagement, not in doing one thing rather than another.
I replied "theoretically possible" to petem just because I understood that he was generically curious (rather than just in this specific case) about the possibility that a bad connection to the g/box solenoids can result in a malfunctioning.

 

[Portofino]

Porto, and you said in your post #34 "There’s bit too much over thinking going on"?!?


I'm not saying that your train of thought is wrong, but how realistic do you think it can be, based on the scenario Deleted User presented us?
:

Just saying before throwing parts at it get an accurate Dx ( Diagnosis btw )


MMCs are really fussy about voltage supply, They can ( recommended) have twin power supply and the unit recognises the higher voltage of the two sources and it’s this relay in this box that switches the operating voltage that starts to fail .
This automatic power supply unit which contains the relay can be supplied by the builder thus is silent in ZF trouble shooting guides . There may be one at each station .That was my point with swopping control heads , and the other point of timely replacing the relays .

What I do know from reading the ZF manual is that ZF highly recommends installing a black box made by ZF ( no #hit ) that selects the higher of two supply voltages, usually from the start and house batteries, and supplies the higher to the control unit. This keeps the unit from shutting down when the engine starts and the voltage momentarily falls.
But like all relays with time there’s an inevitability of oxidising, arcing and failure.

Btw I have trad Morse controls in the boat .:encouragement:
But have experienced first hand relay issues in another automated electro controlled gear box in a car .
Symptoms are the same as is the embarrassment when parking and grief off Mrs P

 

[petem]

I replied "theoretically possible" to petem just because I understood that he was generically curious (rather than just in this specific case) about the possibility that a bad connection to the g/box solenoids can result in a malfunctioning.

I was indeed just curious. My span of experience of these things is very narrow having a bit of a Frankenstein combination of electronic throttles controlling an injection pump (no cables) with an actuator and cables controlling the gear shifting.

But I still wonder if a new potentiometer / contact clean / re-calibration might solve Mike's problem.

At the same time I can understand Mike's man maths justifying the purchase of a shiny new / old stock* throttle control unit at a discounted price which will no doubt fix the fault.


* I speak as someone who has a spare bedroom with boxes of parts, courtesy of eBay, "just in case" :encouragement:

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

If it’s a duff relay inside the box then switching control units with a good one and finding the duff FB worked fine somewhere else and conversely the one fitted to the FB was still symptomatic would have been nice to establish first
$ 20 part .
You get a similar £25 fix of defective relay with Ferrari F 1 paddle shifters.
The contacts oxidise and start to arc , stick and throw out of parameter current about .
You don’t rush out and buy a new steering wheel set of paddles first .Even thought they start becoming unresponsive and sticky / delay prone .
Anyhow my 00.2 p worth .

Agreed but I dont have the time or inclination to do that. If and when I manage to retire like you, then I'm sure I'll spend many happy days tinkering with my boat and taking things apart to investigate whats wrong with them Until then though, I'm more interested in doing whatever's necessary to get the boat working 100% as soon as possible

 

[Portofino]

Agreed but I dont have the time or inclination to do that. If and when I manage to retire like you, then I'm sure I'll spend many happy days tinkering with my boat and taking things apart to investigate whats wrong with them Until then though, I'm more interested in doing whatever's necessary to get the boat working 100% as soon as possible

Point taken , the dabble , research and fix it playing field is not level , along with the added playtime with toys time table

Good luck with a speedy solution btw :encouragement:

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Point taken , the dabble , research and fix it playing field is not level , along with the added playtime with toys time table

Dont get me wrong. I like doing that and indeed I used to do a lot of my own maintenance when I had my boat in the UK but its different with a boat in the Med. If youve got limited time on your boat, then you want to spend it boating rather than fixing stuff!

 

[Swift28]

Did anyone get to the bottom of this in the end .. Deleted User ? done a search quickly and this thread come up.. interesting

We just been having bit of a play with our new boat around marina today , Azimut ( CAT C9'S WITH ZF 285'S ) all running well and engages gears very smoothly but sometimes i put starboard in neutral and then after say 5 seconds or so being in neutral it will engage reverse for a second or 2 and scare the hell out of me, i just hit engine stop button , restarted and fine but does this randomly , not all the time , this evening we ran boat up again on pontoon while i tried investigating , i started just the starboard on engine on own, sitting there for few minutes running and it even decided to engage reverse on its own without touching anything , i want to get to bottom of it asap ..Not a great confidence booster with handling new boat

Any info be great, no error codes seem to show up and all lights indicate all good.

taken some quick pics this evening so you can see setup on boat

cheers

 

[jrudge]

I would calibrate. The throttle is a potentiometer. Wear may cause slight change in resistance and cause this.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Did anyone get to the bottom of this in the end .. Deleted User ? done a search quickly and this thread come up.. interesting

The short answer from me is that I dont know. Unfortunately for one reason or another I havent been on my boat since the date that I started this thread. I did buy a replacement ZF controller from Boats.co.uk and shipped it out to Antibes for the local MAN/ZF engineer to fit but he found that the connector plug was different. Not only that but he also found that whilst the new ZF controller body looked like my existing throttles, it was a different series and couldnt be configured to my existing control box. When I found out about this I just instructed him to swap the lower and upper controllers but he said that he couldnt guarantee that it would fix the problem. Since then the boat has been out on seatrial with a skipper and the MAN/ZF engineer on board and the problem did not manifest itself and neither was there an error code on the control box. The MAN/ZF engineer is saying that until he can witness the problem for himself and find the reason for why its happening its not worth doing anything. And thats where I am. Problem not solved and no cause found.

Sorry if thats not helpful at all but at least your boat is in the UK and its much easier for you to demonstrate the problem to a technician. If you find out whats causing your problem I'm very interested to know!

 

[Portofino]

Forgot to mention in my post #40/43 that the sticky relay problem started to occur when the car was hot , I mean very hot .
A short or medium run out and the problem wouldn’t manifest.
Then the frequency of occurs more and more as the relay tips get damaged by arcing ......eventually they stick together trapping it in a gear or a coil burns out inside making the relay inactive = won’t shift .
No error codes thrown either , just embarrassment like boat parking .......stuff like while waiting at traffic lights .....the driver behind craps himself as the lights go green and your reversing lights go on !

Any how it ain’t the throttle bodies .

 

[CLB]

If it only happens with the flybridges controls, and not the ones at the lower helm, I would put money on it being water ingress into the flybridge throttle unit. Experienced this myself on a different make of electronic controls.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

If it only happens with the flybridges controls, and not the ones at the lower helm, I would put money on it being water ingress into the flybridge throttle unit. Experienced this myself on a different make of electronic controls.

In my case it was also occasionally happening at the 3rd set of controls in the cockpit which are covered all the time. But say youre right and this is due to moisture ingress into the control unit. How could you fix that and how could you stop it happening again? Wouldnt the moisture have caused permanent corrosion and wouldnt water just enter the control unit again after you'd cleaned it up?

 

[MapisM]

M, I'm only guessing now, since as you know I always managed to dodge electronic controls on all my boats, current one included.
But I don't think it's a matter of water ingress, also because I can't imagine how it could have happened in your cockpit station.
Imho, it has more to see with the fact that any external station, no matter how well covered, is still constantly exposed to strong temp and humidity excursions, day in, day out.
And this can create internal condensation, even on any perfectly sealed unit.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

And this can create internal condensation, even on any perfectly sealed unit.

I dont doubt that but whats the cure? Is it simply a case of opening up the unit, drying it out and maybe spraying a bit of WD40 in it and how do you stop it happening again?

 

[Swift28]

Well .. bit of update .. mine too was giving me problems when using the cockpit controls,Haven't had any problem yet when using flybridge which is out in the elements,i stripped mine apart as much as i could and cleaned everything with WD40,sprayed every little gap/piece and re assembled, moved them back and forward about 100 times while watching tv to get contacts cleaned. Had boat running for around 4 hours playing around the marina and i sat with lines on in and out of gear many many times and hasn't missed a beat , been perfect and very accurate, time will tell but so far seems good

Obviously next step if get any more problems would be to try re calibrate like Jrudge said, i did look in manual and seems like a right faff setting these up compared to volvos

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Thanks for the update Swift28. Looks like I'll have to take my controls apart and do the same

 

[MapisM]

I dont doubt that but whats the cure?
Is it simply a case of opening up the unit, drying it out and maybe spraying a bit of WD40 in it and how do you stop it happening again?

My short answer has to be I don't know.
That said, yes, other than building a thermally insulated box to put above each external station (which believe it or not, is something I've seen done by the owner of a F590!), and keep it enclosed whenever not in use, I think what you are suggesting is all you can do.
And I see that in the meantime Swift28 experience confirms that, btw.
Though I believe that the station he has on his Azi is a much simpler version, compared to yours.

 

[Tradewinds]

Thanks for the update Swift28. Looks like I'll have to take my controls apart and do the same

Personally I'd use Corrosion Block - Corrosion Block 114g Pump Spray | Sea Start in preference to WD40.

If not Corrosion Block then ACF50 - which has a lot of other uses.

 

[Portofino]

@ Swift 28. Were you getting the same symptoms as Mike ?
Mikes was spontaneously engaging R when in N or F .

Marc s are lazy just delay s when moved ......so indicates dirty contacts .

What exactly were your symptoms ? .......just a bit lazy too longer delays because of dirt / corrosion of the contacts ?

If Mikes are dirty / corroded contacts then surly the engineers would have found that when testing, as they don’t suddenly s
spontaneously self clean up , when the unit is moved .And the fault would have moved when the FB control was moved to another station .....it did not .

A periodic strip n clean of any boat component which relies on clean contacts is a good thing , iam not saying don’t do it .

But theses signs and symptoms that Mikes been getting point to something else , deeper not the control heads .
Of course with any presentation of a patient with a disease you can and do get occasional overlaying issues ie more than one and intermittent symptoms as well .
Every thing needs proving out to arrive at a definitive diagnosis before accurate treatment / surgery commences .

Mikes surgeon ( engineer ) surly from experience 30 + years if a consultant status guy ( top of his tree ) would have clocked dirty / corroded contacts if he was any good !
I suspect he’s thinking something a bit more radical like replace the control boxes in the ER buts that’s major surgery and there’s nothing to be gained rushing in to do that while the patient seems able to cope .....how ever I suspect even thought he s told the patient to go away and see , I suspect deep down he knows he ( Deleted User ) will be back .

Sometimes folks need warming up to big procedures and associated bigger bills that in this case come with it .
Sort of got ready for it .