Problem with ZF electronic engine controls

[petem]

Thanks. I half suspected that. I've had a bit of a run in recently with the people who look after my boat because, whilst they are putting the flybridge cushions away inside the boat every time we leave, I suspect that they are not putting the covers on the flybridge which means that the ZF unit is open to the elements all the time. I'll check out the existing unit once I replace it

They're probably too busy stealing your glasses!

 

[MapisM]

I had the same experience, on one engine only, made for an interesting attempt at anchoring after dark in the wet and wind. Took me a good while to figure out it wasn't just me going crazy.
In my case it was water in the control box, i.e. the one with the actuators for the throttle and gear cables. The water was in the base of the box, not actually touching anything, but depending on the temp etc it appeared like it caused condensation on the circuits somewhere and messed up the sensing of the voltages.

After reading your post, I was going to reply that what you experienced can't happen to Deleted User, because he doesn't have the unit you are describing.
But I am now a bit puzzled after reading his reply, where I think he assumed that the unit you mentioned is the throttle levers box (usually called "station").

I mean, by "control box with the actuators for the throttle and gear cables", I guess you are talking of the box inside the engine room, wired to the stations and whose actuators push/pull the cables which eventually move the governor levers on the engines and the fwd/neutral/rear levers on the gearboxes.
This is the typical setup in boats with mechanical engines and electronic throttles, but with electronically controlled engines and g/boxes, there's no need for any actuators.

Actually, also with electronic engines there is a similar unit, which receives the signals from all the stations and in turn controls the throttles and gearboxes, but this unit has no cable actuators and is only electrically wired, also on the engine side.
As the previous one, it's also normally located in the e/r.

I don't think this has anything to see with the fault Deleted User is experiencing though, which is quite likely specific of the f/b station.

 

[petem]

If Mike's engines are mechanical then the issue could be at the actuator end. Could even be something as simple as adjusting the cables.

 

[Spare Thyme]

I had a problem with my ZF Microcommanders (585’s) earlier this year, every now and then the station would emit a beeping sound and the shift would do either odd things or stop completely. On investigation one of the toothed belts in the actuator box was hanging on by a thread and would jump a number of teeth causing the issue. I think they all use a similar worm screw and belt arrangement. Pain to change the belts but I now carry a few spares.

Possibly not the issue in your case but worth considering

 

[MapisM]

If Mike's engines are mechanical then the issue could be at the actuator end. Could even be something as simple as adjusting the cables.

But that's my point, they are not - hence no cables, just wires.

 

[petem]

But that's my point, they are not - hence no cables, just wires.

Whilst I agree with what you are saying, I suppose that even 100% electronic engines need something to turn an electronic signal into a physical gear change.

Anyhow, as this appears to be some kind of 'ghost' gear selection I would agree that the issue is likely to be electronic.

 

[James L]

After reading your post, I was going to reply that what you experienced can't happen to Deleted User, because he doesn't have the unit you are describing.
But I am now a bit puzzled after reading his reply, where I think he assumed that the unit you mentioned is the throttle levers box (usually called "station").

I mean, by "control box with the actuators for the throttle and gear cables", I guess you are talking of the box inside the engine room, wired to the stations and whose actuators push/pull the cables which eventually move the governor levers on the engines and the fwd/neutral/rear levers on the gearboxes.
This is the typical setup in boats with mechanical engines and electronic throttles, but with electronically controlled engines and g/boxes, there's no need for any actuators.

Actually, also with electronic engines there is a similar unit, which receives the signals from all the stations and in turn controls the throttles and gearboxes, but this unit has no cable actuators and is only electrically wired, also on the engine side.
As the previous one, it's also normally located in the e/r.

I don't think this has anything to see with the fault Deleted User is experiencing though, which is quite likely specific of the f/b station.

Ah, didn't realise it was electrical all the way to the engine.
Still quite possible it's dampness/condensation somewhere in the circuit.

anyway, fingers crossed the replacement controls will solve it.

 

[MapisM]

I suppose that even 100% electronic engines need something to turn an electronic signal into a physical gear change.

Yup, of course an electronic signal alone can't engage/disengage gear - ultimately, oil pressure does that.
But to open and close oil valves, what the g/box "needs" ain't necessarily a lever moved by a cable.

In ZF g/boxes (like the 350 in my boat and the 665V in Deleted User boat), the control valve can be either mechanical or electrical - it's just a matter of ordering it with the appropriate version.
The first has a lever, whose center corresponds to neutral, and that can be rotated cw/ccw to engage fwd/rear. This lever is moved by a push/pull cable, which in a 100% mechanical setup goes straight to the throttles, while in boats with electronic throttles goes to the actuators in the above mentioned control box.
But with the latter, the control valve is fully electrical, hence connected only with wires.

Now, while in my boat the control valves are obviously mechanical, I'm not positive about the ones on Deleted User boat.
Theoretically, Ferretti could have fitted mechanical control valves, driven via actuators+cables.
But that would have been a weird choice indeed, in a boat already equipped with electronic throttles.
So, my assumption is that on top of having only wires controlling the engines, also the g/boxes have electrical control valves, hence no mechanical cables at all.

Happy to stand corrected from him, obviously.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

After reading your post, I was going to reply that what you experienced can't happen to Deleted User, because he doesn't have the unit you are describing.
But I am now a bit puzzled after reading his reply, where I think he assumed that the unit you mentioned is the throttle levers box (usually called "station").

I mean, by "control box with the actuators for the throttle and gear cables", I guess you are talking of the box inside the engine room, wired to the stations and whose actuators push/pull the cables which eventually move the governor levers on the engines and the fwd/neutral/rear levers on the gearboxes.
This is the typical setup in boats with mechanical engines and electronic throttles, but with electronically controlled engines and g/boxes, there's no need for any actuators.

Actually, also with electronic engines there is a similar unit, which receives the signals from all the stations and in turn controls the throttles and gearboxes, but this unit has no cable actuators and is only electrically wired, also on the engine side.
As the previous one, it's also normally located in the e/r.

I don't think this has anything to see with the fault Deleted User is experiencing though, which is quite likely specific of the f/b station.

Actually youre right P. My engines are electronic so there are no cables involved but it could still be a moisture problem in the control unit

 

[petem]

Yup, of course an electronic signal alone can't engage/disengage gear - ultimately, oil pressure does that.
But to open and close oil valves, what the g/box "needs" ain't necessarily a lever moved by a cable.

In ZF g/boxes (like the 350 in my boat and the 665V in Deleted User boat), the control valve can be either mechanical or electrical - it's just a matter of ordering it with the appropriate version.
The first has a lever, whose center corresponds to neutral, and that can be rotated cw/ccw to engage fwd/rear. This lever is moved by a push/pull cable, which in a 100% mechanical setup goes straight to the throttles, while in boats with electronic throttles goes to the actuators in the above mentioned control box.
But with the latter, the control valve is fully electrical, hence connected only with wires.

Now, while in my boat the control valves are obviously mechanical, I'm not positive about the ones on Deleted User boat.
Theoretically, Ferretti could have fitted mechanical control valves, driven via actuators+cables.
But that would have been a weird choice indeed, in a boat already equipped with electronic throttles.
So, my assumption is that on top of having only wires controlling the engines, also the g/boxes have electrical control valves, hence no mechanical cables at all.

Happy to stand corrected from him, obviously.

Thanks P for the explanation. So it's possible (I've no idea of the likelihood) that there is a bad connection with the "electrical control valves"?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

In ZF g/boxes (like the 350 in my boat and the 665V in Deleted User boat), the control valve can be either mechanical or electrical - it's just a matter of ordering it with the appropriate version.
.

Apropos nothing in particular, I see your friend, Mr Bulleri, has done a nice video on the ZF factory here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb8e49zCMJo

I must admit that I didnt realise that the ZF Marine division was based in Italy. That does explain why I'm having problems with my ZF control unit

 

[MapisM]

I must admit that I didnt realise that the ZF Marine division was based in Italy.

Actually, we discussed that already a few months ago in this thread...
Don't be too worried for your memory, anyhow.
As S keeps telling me, for one weird boating related matter that I remember, there are at least three others, obviously more important, that I forget!

 

[MapisM]

Thanks P for the explanation. So it's possible (I've no idea of the likelihood) that there is a bad connection with the "electrical control valves"?

Theoretically possible, I would think. Just a bit unlikely - it's a rather simple electrical plug, obviously sealed.
As Deleted User said, I would guess it's more likely to have moisture affecting the black box placed into the e/r, to which the stations are connected on one hand and the engines+g/boxes on the other.
If nothing else, because it's a somewhat "clever" unit, with much more electronic malarky inside it...

 

[Portofino]

Swop lower helm with duff upper first .
Then we know if the issue follows the unit .
There’s bit too much over thinking going on

 

[petem]

Swop lower helm with duff upper first .
Then we know if the issue follows the unit .
There’s bit too much over thinking going on

Mike's already bought a new helm unit so doesn't need to swop stuff about.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Actually, we discussed that already a few months ago in this thread...
Don't be too worried for your memory, anyhow.
As S keeps telling me, for one weird boating related matter that I remember, there are at least three others, obviously more important, that I forget!

Shit sorry. Old age addling my brain cells but the video is new

 

[Portofino]

Mike's already bought a new helm unit so doesn't need to swop stuff about.

But if the symptoms don’t follow the unit , then he’s got another fully functioning unit to add to the two perfectly functional units he already has AND no further on .

Chucking parts @ it without an accurate Dx ......... Hmm .
Proving out a duff unit would have been logical and so easy first .

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Chucking parts @ it without an accurate Dx ......... Hmm .
Proving out a duff unit would have been logical and so easy first .

Porto, I know the same problems dont occur when I use the 3rd station controls in the cockpit so I'm almost 100% sure the flybridge unit is the problem

 

[jfm]

Thanks P for the explanation. So it's possible (I've no idea of the likelihood) that there is a bad connection with the "electrical control valves"?

No, it's impossible to get the reported symptoms from a bad connection at the gearbox FNR solenoid valve.

Mike is getting reverse when he asks for neutral - that can't be caused by a bad connection on the g'box solenoid. A bad connection can only cause reduced voltage on a solenoid when you ask for full voltage.; it cant cause +24v on the reverse solenoid when you ask for 0v. So the fault is further up the system, mostly like the throttle head as discussed above.

 

[Portofino]

Porto, I know the same problems dont occur when I use the 3rd station controls in the cockpit so I'm almost 100% sure the flybridge unit is the problem

Each station could well have its own relay in the black control box in the ER .
Theses relays respond to the low current sent from the control pot .They switch to the higher current that moves the respective solenoid.

If it’s a duff relay inside the box then switching control units with a good one and finding the duff FB worked fine somewhere else and conversely the one fitted to the FB was still symptomatic would have been nice to establish first
$ 20 part .
You get a similar £25 fix of defective relay with Ferrari F 1 paddle shifters.
The contacts oxidise and start to arc , stick and throw out of parameter current about .
You don’t rush out and buy a new steering wheel set of paddles first .Even thought they start becoming unresponsive and sticky / delay prone .
Anyhow my 00.2 p worth .

Some folks routinely switch out the relays as preventative measures , not only in F car F 1 gearbox world but ZF micro commander marine world .
In fact in F car F 1 circles you carry a spare in the glove box it’s a 10 min job to switch it out .