Privatising SAR - makes me depressed on so many levels

[dylanwinter]

it really saddens me that they are doing this

I assume that training will now only be on an strictlty scheduled basis

I loved the idea that it was done by uber professionals doing it for reasons other than money

bean counters and safety are uncomfortable bed fellows

just another reason why life gets slowly crapper and cruddier with each passing year

D

 

[prv]

You hadn't noticed that some of the helicopters have been commercial contracts for ages (Chanelyacht mentioned thirty years)?

Pete

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

You really are a gloomy thing aren't you. Why should this be any different to other services that have been successfully privatised?

The public sector has consistently demonstrated its ability to overspend, under perform and complete inability to innovate in virtually every field that it is responsible for.

I think its a good thing.

 

[ffiill]

mmm-privatisation of the public sector
-leaving the elderly infirm up to their necks in p...s and s..t.
-Making very disturbed mentally ill people go to work along with the legless and blind! and even better if you dont have any arms.
-putting the disturbed mentally ill out on the streets(Oh no that is the government)
-letters that never arrive
-loss of wireless communications in rural areas
-loss of theatres;out of hours health care
-transporting prisoners around the UK in grossly overcrowded prison vans
-giving our roads to contractors who leave them to fall apart
etc etc

 

[chanelyacht]

it really saddens me that they are doing this

I assume that training will now only be on an strictlty scheduled basis

I loved the idea that it was done by uber professionals doing it for reasons other than money

bean counters and safety are uncomfortable bed fellows

just another reason why life gets slowly crapper and cruddier with each passing year

D

Dylan,

I'm sorry, but you're really, really, wrong on this one.

Privatised SAR came in around 30 years ago when the MoD pulled out at Tangmere, and also ran out of Manston prior to the (short lived) return of the MoD there.

The contracted crews have carried out some amazing rescues over the years, not just at sea, but in the mountains and further inland (Gloucestershire flooding, Boscastle, etc). Each time they have demonstrated their ability does not lack, and the cost factor probably holds back more MoD airframes than contracted ones.

In recent years, MoD have really struggled to keep this commitment (which was never actually part of their remit anyway) as conflicts abroad make greater demands for military SAR. Yes, I'll miss seeing the old SeaKings, but I won't miss scrabbling round for a cab or aircrew during an incident.

My only real regret with the SAR-H programme is it was done on a search and rescue basis - a complete review of UK emergency air assets might have been more useful, and I do think someone could have though seriously about equipping air ambulance with winches as in Aus / NZ.

If you want, PM me and I'll be happy to talk through this.

Sometimes seemingly good news actually is good news.

 

[photodog]

Dylan,

I'm sorry, but you're really, really, wrong on this one.

Privatised SAR came in around 30 years ago when the MoD pulled out at Tangmere, and also ran out of Manston prior to the (short lived) return of the MoD there.

The contracted crews have carried out some amazing rescues over the years, not just at sea, but in the mountains and further inland (Gloucestershire flooding, Boscastle, etc). Each time they have demonstrated their ability does not lack, and the cost factor probably holds back more MoD airframes than contracted ones.

In recent years, MoD have really struggled to keep this commitment (which was never actually part of their remit anyway) as conflicts abroad make greater demands for military SAR. Yes, I'll miss seeing the old SeaKings, but I won't miss scrabbling round for a cab or aircrew during an incident.

My only real regret with the SAR-H programme is it was done on a search and rescue basis - a complete review of UK emergency air assets might have been more useful, and I do think someone could have though seriously about equipping air ambulance with winches as in Aus / NZ.

If you want, PM me and I'll be happy to talk through this.

Sometimes seemingly good news actually is good news.

I think what people are forgetting is that the sea king has to go.... It's ancient and at the end of its life... Every other operator with these is getting shot....

And the problem we face is neither the raf or the navy have enough medium helo's to fullfill this role... The merlin in reality is well ott and the navy ones are heavily militarised... And they are short of airframes for existing commitments...

So we would have had to aquire another 20 or 30 airframes just for this role... Ie another long protracted boondongle....

And we probably would have ended up with the s92 and that would have meant not just the operational units but a ocu as well and a requirment to make them suitable for military use as well.... And the Canucks are currently 5 years behind schedule with their navy s92 aquisition....


Extending the current situation and assigning the cabs to the coast guard is by and far the most sensible decision...

22 new aircraft btw is more dedicated SAR helo's than Canada has btw....

 

[HoratioHB]

Dylan,

I'm sorry, but you're really, really, wrong on this one.

Privatised SAR came in around 30 years ago when the MoD pulled out at Tangmere, and also ran out of Manston prior to the (short lived) return of the MoD there.

The contracted crews have carried out some amazing rescues over the years, not just at sea, but in the mountains and further inland (Gloucestershire flooding, Boscastle, etc). Each time they have demonstrated their ability does not lack, and the cost factor probably holds back more MoD airframes than contracted ones.

In recent years, MoD have really struggled to keep this commitment (which was never actually part of their remit anyway) as conflicts abroad make greater demands for military SAR. Yes, I'll miss seeing the old SeaKings, but I won't miss scrabbling round for a cab or aircrew during an incident.

My only real regret with the SAR-H programme is it was done on a search and rescue basis - a complete review of UK emergency air assets might have been more useful, and I do think someone could have though seriously about equipping air ambulance with winches as in Aus / NZ.

If you want, PM me and I'll be happy to talk through this.

Sometimes seemingly good news actually is good news.

Totally agree. This is long overdue. In the mid 90s I was involved in a study on helicopter support in the three services. Justifying the cost and benefit of military SAR was almost impossible even then. The reason it originally came about was the RN and RAF needed it to pull their fast jet pilots out of the oggin after resorting to Martin Baker. Consequently they could help out when not doing that. This turned into a military run task that was very hard to justify on operational grounds when the amount of fixed wing flying no longer justified it. On top of that, the aircraft are so well past their sell by date as to be almost a joke. I speak from experience, I was flying SAR Sea Kings in 1980 and the only reason we can afford to keep the current relics flying is by robbing the retired ASW versions. Yes they have a few upgrades since then but in comparison to the modern machines they are stone age and horribly expensive to run. All that said, my only concern is the speed of response on the south coast - getting rid of the base at Portland seems very short sighted. The argument that the Solent lot could cover was tried in the nineties and failed - I wouldn't be very surprised to see the same happen again.

 

[chanelyacht]

Totally agree. This is long overdue. In the mid 90s I was involved in a study on helicopter support in the three services. Justifying the cost and benefit of military SAR was almost impossible even then. The reason it originally came about was the RN and RAF needed it to pull their fast jet pilots out of the oggin after resorting to Martin Baker. Consequently they could help out when not doing that. This turned into a military run task that was very hard to justify on operational grounds when the amount of fixed wing flying no longer justified it. On top of that, the aircraft are so well past their sell by date as to be almost a joke. I speak from experience, I was flying SAR Sea Kings in 1980 and the only reason we can afford to keep the current relics flying is by robbing the retired ASW versions. Yes they have a few upgrades since then but in comparison to the modern machines they are stone age and horribly expensive to run. All that said, my only concern is the speed of response on the south coast - getting rid of the base at Portland seems very short sighted. The argument that the Solent lot could cover was tried in the nineties and failed - I wouldn't be very surprised to see the same happen again.

Hmm..I do have misgivings about Portland, but the new base at Manston (excellent news) will shorten the Solent base's eastern area considerably, and the new St Athan base will be able to cover Portland's northern borders, so I suspect all will be OK.

Anything really big mid channel, Cherbourg are able to respond as well.

 

[mainsail1]

Dylan,

Life does get crapper and cruddier with each passing year but I fear that has more to do with our age than anything else. A weekend with my grown up kids knocks the sense back into me. They have none of my old fashioned hang ups.

The Solent Helicopter is a shining example of what can be done without any MOD involvement. So lets rejoice, sit back and enjoy the show!

it really saddens me that they are doing this

I assume that training will now only be on an strictlty scheduled basis

I loved the idea that it was done by uber professionals doing it for reasons other than money

bean counters and safety are uncomfortable bed fellows

just another reason why life gets slowly crapper and cruddier with each passing year

D

 

[dylanwinter]

sorry lads

I am clearly completely wrong

bring on the Toby Young with his underperforming academies

bring on Murdoch with his phone tapping hacks

bring on private clamping companies


time for a privatised police force and army

Place your tust in Haliburton and Force 4

so many great things to come

it will be alright

Dylan

 

[chanelyacht]

sorry lads

I am clearly completley wrong

bring on the Toby Young with his academies

bring on Murdoch

bring on private clamping companies

so many good things to come

time for a privatised police force and army

Place your tust in Haliburton and Force 4

it will be alright

Dylan

No, you're right on those things.

The SAR issue is one of those where the private sector can actually do things better though. That's the experience internationally, too.

 

[prv]

bring on the Toby Young with his underperforming academies

bring on Murdoch with his phone tapping hacks

bring on private clamping companies


time for a privatised police force and army

Place your tust in Haliburton and Force 4

so many great things to come

it will be alright

It's not all-or-nothing, "everything should be privatised" or "everything should be state run". Real life is more nuanced than that. But what else should we expect from a journalist?

This isn't even a choice between public and private in general, it's a choice between overstretched-military-doing-it-as-an-increasingly-unsustainable-sideline and private. Another option might have been creating a DoT-run Coastguard air wing, dedicated to the role in the way the new organisation will be, and that would also have been an improvement on leaving it with the military.

Pete

 

[HoratioHB]

And of course - guess were most of the staff will be recruited from..........

 

[dulcibella]

sorry lads

I am clearly completely wrong

Dylan

Being right 9 times out of 10 isn't bad!

 

[grumpy_o_g]

This isn't even a choice between public and private in general, it's a choice between overstretched-military-doing-it-as-an-increasingly-unsustainable-sideline and private. Another option might have been creating a DoT-run Coastguard air wing, dedicated to the role in the way the new organisation will be, and that would also have been an improvement on leaving it with the military.

Pete

It's not really even that - it just reflects the change in the military from the cold war, when much of the operations were around and off the UK coast, North Sea, etc. to one where most ops are overseas and we deliberately did things like that to use up peace time spare capacity in the military. The military is meant to recover military personnel and, with most of them in the Middle East these days, a chopper in the UK isn't much use.

Having said that I know exactly what Dylan means - it's that idiosyncrantic way of doing things slightly differently in this country that I love about it and each change brings us closer to a mundane global normality. I don't want to be like everyone else, I want to be different. Unfortunately money often gets in the way.

 

[Pleiades]

Not too fussed about who delivers the service as long as it is good and timely at point of need.
Consider again our wonderful, sacred, treasured NHS. Beloved to one and all - especially politicians. This is a state provided hugely expensive organisation that has given us Dr Harold Shipman literally murdering his way through his NHS patient list. It is an organisation that has recently caused the needless deaths of thousands of patients through gross malpractice and institutional incompetence beyond all understanding in Staffordshire. It was not a privatised outfit that caused those deaths.
If I need rescue services (or medical services) I would primarily wish that they be good at the job. Tendering out of SAR provision is no guarantee of improved service but it may not necessarily be a turd in a teacup.
Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

 

[Highland Bear]

As an ex rotary wing pilot (green camo dept, not yellow) this can only be good news for the rescuee (sorry,I had to invent a word other than "customer") Brand new airframes, state of the art night vis and FLIR kit, more lift power, speed and range than the venerable Sea King and crews, probably some ex military, who are solely focussed on SAR work long term, not worrying about having their little pink bodies shot at in Afghanistan/next overseas intervention at the end of their current tour in Coastal Britain. Win win if you ask me.

 

[Grumpybear]

Dylan

This may come as a shock, so I will break it to you gently.

Military SAR crews do do it for money. Yes, they get paid for flying!

 

[dylanwinter]

Dylan

This may come as a shock, so I will break it to you gently.

Military SAR crews do do it for money. Yes, they get paid for flying!

do you mean to tell me that King to be Bill is only doing it for the money?

what a shame

yet another illusion destroyed

Dylan

by the way I have a helicopter joke

if you are at a party with 500 guests how can you tell which one is the helicopter pilot

don't worry... he will soon tell you

 

[Grumpybear]

do you mean to tell me that King to be Bill is only doing it for the money?

what a shame

yet another illusion destroyed

Dylan

by the way I have a helicopter joke

if you are at a party with 500 guests how can you tell which one is the helicopter pilot

don't worry... he will soon tell you

Brian's boy may be the odd one out....