robyonfrome
New member
Would a private sale put you off buying, as apposed to going through a broker.
Private sale put you off
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Eyore
Well-known member
Absolutely not, I have bought boats privately and through brokers, it really doesn't make much difference either way, except cutting out a broker often means you can strike a better bargain negotiating directly with the owner. Brokers are there to represent the sellers interests not the buyers and the only benefit is that one presumes the title is clear, whereas buying privately you need to check that out.
jac
Well-known member
Depends on value.
Realistically no it wouldn't but if no broker, I would be wanting someone professional to assist with the legal work, ensuring no charges etc. also deposit would be a big concern.
For a cheap boat, under say £10k then might take the risk but get above the cost where mortgages may be charged on the boat (£30k) then would be very wary indeed.
Realistically no it wouldn't but if no broker, I would be wanting someone professional to assist with the legal work, ensuring no charges etc. also deposit would be a big concern.
For a cheap boat, under say £10k then might take the risk but get above the cost where mortgages may be charged on the boat (£30k) then would be very wary indeed.
robyonfrome
New member
'PRESUMES' that's always the worry
NealB
Well-known member
I'd agree 100% with Eyore.
I've bought and sold many boats over the years, both privately and through brokers.
My own preference would always be private, but a good broker can help to smooth out negotiations and give confidence to both parties that things are being done properly.
I've bought and sold many boats over the years, both privately and through brokers.
My own preference would always be private, but a good broker can help to smooth out negotiations and give confidence to both parties that things are being done properly.
chinita
Well-known member
I guess it is all down to personality.
For some, the anonymity helps when dealing through a broker. You can sniff, snort, wrinkle your lip and make a silly offer - the broker is bound to relay all offers (or so I understand).
Doing that, face to face, may be more tricky for them.
However, there are others who would relish the chance to negotiate direct. They are the ones who reckon they can charm the pants off the Duchess of Cambridge.
For some, the anonymity helps when dealing through a broker. You can sniff, snort, wrinkle your lip and make a silly offer - the broker is bound to relay all offers (or so I understand).
Doing that, face to face, may be more tricky for them.
However, there are others who would relish the chance to negotiate direct. They are the ones who reckon they can charm the pants off the Duchess of Cambridge.
sailorman
Well-known member
Searush
New member
It never has, but then I resent paying for a Broker's fee on top of the seller's price when the broker represents the seller. And don't try telling me the seller pays the broker, because he does it with the money I pay for the boat. No broker, no fees & the price will be cheaper for the buyer.
pvb
Well-known member
pvb
Well-known member
I reckon a committed private seller will make sure the boat is tidy and presentable for viewing, he'll be present at the viewing and will be able to answer any questions knowledgeably, and he'll have all the relevant documents to hand to show a prospective buyer. In contrast, many brokers seem woefully unprepared when carrying out viewings.
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grumpy_o_g
Well-known member
A sale through a broker is still a private sale (unless he is brokering a deal with a dealer or manufacturer). I'm not sure exactly what buying through a broker adds for the buyer - a genuine question - unless it is specifically written into a contract between the buyer and the broker. That doesn't mean I wouldn't engage the services of a broker if I was buying a boat, but I wouldn't expect much protection from the seller's agent if I was the buyer.
doris
Well-known member
You have obviously never worked in a professional market that involves brokers, direct OTC trading, electronic deals etc. All comes put in the wash mate.
Seajet
...
I would normally feel competent to buy privately, and it's always nice to meet the owner; a lot of info ( or even friendship ! ) may be gleaned that way and with luck one may judge if the deal is sound.
However I have nothing against buying through a broker if they had the particular boat I wanted, and if a good one they have benefits; whether worth the usually slightly hiked price is entirely down to the individual boat / deal.
However I have nothing against buying through a broker if they had the particular boat I wanted, and if a good one they have benefits; whether worth the usually slightly hiked price is entirely down to the individual boat / deal.
E39mad
Well-known member
It can be more expensive sometimes for a vendor to sell privately - time and distance just to show someone around for one. Many viewings and missed days of work could cost you more than using a broker. You clearly missed the long thread about a month ago which covered the very subject.
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jonic
Well-known member
It wouldn't put me off, but then I know what to look for. 
Buying through a qualified broker means you should get the following:
Title has been checked and the boat comes with the correct documentation to verify it.
Vat status has been checked and the boat comes with the correct and relevant documentation.
The RCD status has been checked and the boat has the certificate or the documentary proof required for exemption.
If part 1 registered a transcript of registry will be applied for to check for recorded mortgages.
A sale and purchase agreement setting out both parties contractual obligations during the sale as with regard to risk, survey, payment dates and final title documents to be delivered on completion, will be drawn up and properly administered by the broker.
Your deposit will be held in an independent client account, not by the seller, and will be returned to you by the broker, not the seller, if things go wrong at survey stage or the seller defaults on providing the correct documentation before title transfer.
Your purchase funds will not be released to the seller until all the correct documents for the boat have been received.
There will be a properly recorded paper trail of the sale and it's conditions.
The broker will ensure the newly issued completion and title documents are in order and title passes correctly to you.
The broker will have professional indemnity insurance.
If buying privately you should:
Check thoroughly that the previous Bills of Sale have been correctly filled in - they often aren't. Things such as the amount of shares to be transferred can be wrong, the section regarding mortgages is often incorrectly deleted in full, rather than the single sentence, or the document is not witnessed.
Make sure there is at least five years worth of correct and original title history.
Remember that the SSR is NOT proof of title
Apply for a transcript if the boat is part 1 registered.
If the boat is not on part 1 and some of the title documents such as the Bills of Sale and Builders Certificate are not originals, be wary as this may mean the originals are being held by someone as security for a loan. (Especially if they are stamped copy)
Ensure the VAT documentation is correct - this is usually where most problems are encountered.
Ensure the boat is exempt or complies with the RCD
Use a proper sale and purchase contract and be clear about the deposit and it's return.
Summaries of current VAT notices from HMRC and links to additional resources regarding VAT and the RCD from ABYA can be found here http://www.jryachts.com/vat-and-rcd
The RYA also publish relevant and useful guidelines on buying privately.
I have a useful guide to the stages of the brokerage process here http://www.jryachts.com/buyers-guide
Buying through a qualified broker means you should get the following:
Title has been checked and the boat comes with the correct documentation to verify it.
Vat status has been checked and the boat comes with the correct and relevant documentation.
The RCD status has been checked and the boat has the certificate or the documentary proof required for exemption.
If part 1 registered a transcript of registry will be applied for to check for recorded mortgages.
A sale and purchase agreement setting out both parties contractual obligations during the sale as with regard to risk, survey, payment dates and final title documents to be delivered on completion, will be drawn up and properly administered by the broker.
Your deposit will be held in an independent client account, not by the seller, and will be returned to you by the broker, not the seller, if things go wrong at survey stage or the seller defaults on providing the correct documentation before title transfer.
Your purchase funds will not be released to the seller until all the correct documents for the boat have been received.
There will be a properly recorded paper trail of the sale and it's conditions.
The broker will ensure the newly issued completion and title documents are in order and title passes correctly to you.
The broker will have professional indemnity insurance.
If buying privately you should:
Check thoroughly that the previous Bills of Sale have been correctly filled in - they often aren't. Things such as the amount of shares to be transferred can be wrong, the section regarding mortgages is often incorrectly deleted in full, rather than the single sentence, or the document is not witnessed.
Make sure there is at least five years worth of correct and original title history.
Remember that the SSR is NOT proof of title
Apply for a transcript if the boat is part 1 registered.
If the boat is not on part 1 and some of the title documents such as the Bills of Sale and Builders Certificate are not originals, be wary as this may mean the originals are being held by someone as security for a loan. (Especially if they are stamped copy)
Ensure the VAT documentation is correct - this is usually where most problems are encountered.
Ensure the boat is exempt or complies with the RCD
Use a proper sale and purchase contract and be clear about the deposit and it's return.
Summaries of current VAT notices from HMRC and links to additional resources regarding VAT and the RCD from ABYA can be found here http://www.jryachts.com/vat-and-rcd
The RYA also publish relevant and useful guidelines on buying privately.
I have a useful guide to the stages of the brokerage process here http://www.jryachts.com/buyers-guide
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Hadenough
Well-known member
Don't bank on it! The weirdo I bought mine from lurked in the car park while I viewed, never actually met him, was all dealt with by passing documents through a third party (not a broker). He thought the auxiliary water tank was a holding tank, told me the Lavac didn't work when all it needed was for an extra valve on the inlet to be opened, kept masses of cast iron ballast (loose!) under the aft bunk to "stabilise the vessel for his wife", only ever, and I mean, ever, used the genoa so I inherited a suite of 8 sails, 7 of which were totally unused! It was a fraught and protracted transaction but we are reaping the benefits now. :encouragement: So no, buying privately wouldn't put me off but be prepared to do your home work and be patient.
sailorman
Well-known member
I sold my last boat (part 1 reg) privately using the RYA contract.
after the survey we done a deal, nothing showed up on the survey that i was unaware of.
That was 15 yrs ago & the chap still owns her
after the survey we done a deal, nothing showed up on the survey that i was unaware of.
That was 15 yrs ago & the chap still owns her
chinita
Well-known member
I am pretty sure that this site only attracts the good guys; and JONIC is undoubtedly one of them.
Last year I was viewing boats on behalf of an Irish friend. I looked at just three, each with different brokerages. Never accompanied, one of them the broker was not even in the office in spite of me making an appointment. At the third brokerage the secretary (only one in the office and about to knock off at 3.30pm) invited us to scout around the boatyard for a ladder to get on board and post the keys back through the letter box.
Now, JONIC will cry foul. However, I would suggest to him - and the other good guys - that if they can be arsed, just visit a few brokerages incognito and see what they dig up.
I can provide details of the three brokerages if required.
Last year I was viewing boats on behalf of an Irish friend. I looked at just three, each with different brokerages. Never accompanied, one of them the broker was not even in the office in spite of me making an appointment. At the third brokerage the secretary (only one in the office and about to knock off at 3.30pm) invited us to scout around the boatyard for a ladder to get on board and post the keys back through the letter box.
Now, JONIC will cry foul. However, I would suggest to him - and the other good guys - that if they can be arsed, just visit a few brokerages incognito and see what they dig up.
I can provide details of the three brokerages if required.
silver-fox
Active member
I have always been impressed with jonic and he would be the first I would approach if and when I decide to sell.
But when buying remember the broker is the seller's agent, not yours, nor is he independent, he is paid by the seller. That doesn't mean necessarily that he is not going to treat you fairly its just important to emphasise the realities of the situation. No sale no fee can influence people and what they say. So broker or not its up to you to confirm the realities of the sale/purchase
Whatever method of sale the slogan has to be Caveat Emptor - buyer beware. Take advice, check your facts, understand the risks, buy with your eyes open. If you don't have the skills, hire some who has, and who will have a duty of care towards you.
Good luck, hope you find a boat you will enjoy!
But when buying remember the broker is the seller's agent, not yours, nor is he independent, he is paid by the seller. That doesn't mean necessarily that he is not going to treat you fairly its just important to emphasise the realities of the situation. No sale no fee can influence people and what they say. So broker or not its up to you to confirm the realities of the sale/purchase
Whatever method of sale the slogan has to be Caveat Emptor - buyer beware. Take advice, check your facts, understand the risks, buy with your eyes open. If you don't have the skills, hire some who has, and who will have a duty of care towards you.
Good luck, hope you find a boat you will enjoy!
