Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
That is how I would understand my contract to read
Private Sale of Boat, does the Marina have a Right to a Bung?
- Thread starter Normalfornorfolk
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That is how I would understand my contract to read
ianj99
Well-Known Member
Damn right they do, unfortunately. Where my van is, they not only want 15% commission but the new owner is forced to pay an ever increasing rent - 7.5% compound p.a. for ever.
I am very annoyed that this rip off is still allowed to continue despite the complaints.
The excuse is that the park does not make money selling a new van so needs to make it by selling used ones. So a seller will get a fraction of what they paid for their new van hence many try to sell privately. The park then cashes in again unless the van is moved to another park. (& not many parks will allow you to bring your own van)
chewi
Well-Known Member
surely the contract is with a customer, who is not necessarily the owner? he could be only part of a share , it could be leased from a financier. the financier could sell his interest on, not affecting the marina or the lessee?
I suppose the seller could sell a "large share" of the boat, so theroretically remaining a shareholder to retain his berth and settle or write off the remainder when the berth has to be renewed.
Thankfully I have a swing mooring in club that wouldn't dream of charging a fee on a sale.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The contract can only be made by a person or entity that can enter into a contract as that person or entity is responsible for any debts. With a syndicate, one person would be nominated to sign the contract, and his syndicate agreement covers his relationship with other members. Same with a company.
If the boat changes hands the contract is still with the person who signed it, and if the contract is fixed he may lose the balance, or he could replace the old boat with a new one. If the boat is not being replaced and the new owner wants to take over the contract, suspect most marinas would facilitate that.
This, of course is an entirely different issue from commission on a private sale.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I have never been in that situation, but I seem to recall that quite a few years ago there was an issue re this & the government laid down some legislation to stop some sort of rip off. Did this not happen & was it not to stop exactly what you are writing about??
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I think you are not entirely correct there. I know that if I wanted to berth a different boat i would have to get the marina's agreement first.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
That again depends on the contract but it would be normal to notify the marina, particularly if the new boat is a different size as that may affect the rate, or even require a new berth. The point I was making is that the contract is not specific to the boat, but with the person.
Dan Tribe
Well-Known Member
I bought my boat via a magazine classified advert and dealt personally with the vendor, no contact with the broker. I was not aware that he had instructed a broker but nobody had been to view.
The price was agreed, subject to survey.
Then came catch 22, the brokers had block booked the hoist and we could only get lifted for a survey with their agreement and after paying commission. (We got round this scam by underhand means )��
At a well known marina in Sussex
The price was agreed, subject to survey.
Then came catch 22, the brokers had block booked the hoist and we could only get lifted for a survey with their agreement and after paying commission. (We got round this scam by underhand means )��
At a well known marina in Sussex
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JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Does yours specify that you have to own the boat for which you are paying berthing?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I do not have a contract as the right to occupy the berth is covered by club rules. However, yes I do have to own the boat as I cannot apply for a berth without showing my "proof" of ownership. Club rules say that all owners must be members. Caused quite a furore when the rule was first introduced about 4 years ago mainly because of the well known problem of "proving" ownership of boats often discussed here. eventually a bit of give and take resolved the issue.
A commercial marina contract would be with an individual person (or other entity) and may or may not specify the actual boat, although for security reasons they would ask for the name of the boat, but not sure they would ask for proof of ownership.
superheat6k
Well-Known Member
Surely this was the Vendor's problem ?
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Ah yes, forgot that would be the case.
I've just been browsing the Kip Marina T&Cs (first one I thought of). They appear to be standard BMF ones, and although the application form requires customer and boat details, I can see nothing so see that the customer must own the boat - though it's clearly assumed by a few references to the "customer's boat". There is nothing at all, as far as I can see, about the contract being broken or ended by a sale.
http://www.kipmarina.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/426964-Kip-Price-List.24.11.14.V1.LOW-RES.pdf
Tranona
Well-Known Member
But in reality there is no need for the marina to end the contract if the customer has paid or is still paying even though the berth is empty. It is more likely that the seller would want to terminate and if the buyer wants to take the berth to enter into a new contract. The problem arises when the berth has been paid for up front and the seller wants a refund or to assign the remaining time to the buyer. This is the situation mentioned earlier and it would be normal for the marina to charge a small fee to transfer the contract.
In our club rules we have to pay a year up front. When I brought my Bavaria back from Greece and wanted a club mooring I had to remove my Eventide but the balance of the year's fees were transferred to my account and then applied to the new berth when it became available. If I was giving up the berth completely then any balance would come back to me.
ashtead
Well-Known Member
As has been said the contract is person to marina and you would expect it to contain a provision prohibiting assignment notation or any other form of purported assignment to a third party . In my experience though the marina if on say a 12 month licence should be able to retain the benefit of any unused months to any new vessel if a delay between the sale and purchase and not make any charge for admin or sale. The new owner might have to accept a move to another figure but is generally able to be accommodated somewhere even if on visitors spaces if returning to a alternative home port. No doubt the approach is dependent on relationship with marina but if upgrading to larger vessel it would seem short sighted of a marina not to wish to retain customer relationship for future income however if supply of berths is short you can see how unscrupulous marinos might adapt a more rackmanite approach to their not so valued bertholders. Maybe this issue needs to be covered in the next marina survey to identify these offenders ?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Not sure there are likely to be offenders on this point as I don't see this as a big issue - at least from a contract point of view. As JD says it does not even appear in the Kip contract. If there is an issue it is more likely to be around the penalty clauses on termination of a fixed term contract, or the relationship between the charges for short term and long term contracts, but none of these are related to the original issue of the thread.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
When I got a berth at Kirkcudbright Marina, my boat was not ready and I had to pay for empty space for two years to avoid going back onto the enormous waiting list.
I see nothing in the Kip/BMF T&Cs which says that a change of ownership matters, as long as someone has paid for a berth for the boat for a year.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
But the situation arises if the seller wants a refund. In practice an assignment is likely to be triggered off by either that or the buyer approaching the marina to advise he now owns the boat. It would be normal for the buyer to want to have the contract in his own name and the marina the same if only for insurance and emergency contact.
The fact that it is not covered in a standard contract suggests it is not a big issue from the marina's viewpoint.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Of course, but as I wrote before it seems to be quite common for boats to be sold with berthing paid for the rest of a contract year, so it seems that in many places a change of ownership mid-year is not, as you put it, a big issue from the marina's viewpoint.
jwilson
Well-Known Member
The 1% (plus VAT) is an archaic contract term, but a few marinas/boatyards still enforce it. Most have now dropped it. If it's in the contract terms the money is owed.
We sold a boat where the original owner had paid berthing in advance for about 5 months and this was absolutely non-refundable. On telling the marina the boat was sold to Mr. X they immediately started charging him daily visitor berthing rates just for staying on the fully paid up pontoon berth for the week till he could move the boat. As the original owner was not buying another boat the marina then had a berth they could let again for 5 months and get double payment..... Other marinas/boatyards are more sensible/less rapacious. As brokers we have to deal with marinas and so I won't name this one. Most though are usually helpful and fair.
We sold a boat where the original owner had paid berthing in advance for about 5 months and this was absolutely non-refundable. On telling the marina the boat was sold to Mr. X they immediately started charging him daily visitor berthing rates just for staying on the fully paid up pontoon berth for the week till he could move the boat. As the original owner was not buying another boat the marina then had a berth they could let again for 5 months and get double payment..... Other marinas/boatyards are more sensible/less rapacious. As brokers we have to deal with marinas and so I won't name this one. Most though are usually helpful and fair.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
Just checked MDL Marina terms and conditions. Their berths are fully transferable with no administration fee. You pay for the period used and if paid in advance then a refund is issued. The new owner should be able to take over the berth and pay the outstanding balance of that year, or take the boat elsewhere.