Private planes get classed as "special case" for derogation!

[ukbaz]

Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

Hi all
Have to say that I find it less than amusing that Avgas, thanks to a concerted campaign backed by the CAA is to be classified as a "special fuel" so that it can be taxed at the minimum rate of increase. So users of private planes are going to be treated very differently to those of us who have boats.

Having read some of the Parliamentary discussions where we are ALL deemed by some MP's to have mega - Gin palaces, and so can well afford to pay more than double for our fuel, it really is ironic that most of us could not afford a private plane!

Surely if there was a fuel that should be classified as "special" it should be red. It is not used in road vehicles, and like Avgas has a "specialist" application, marine, agricultural, heating etc.

Have the various marine related bodies asked the question why aviation as a recreational pursuit merits a more beneficial tax structure to that of boating?

 

[rubberduck]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

"Have the various marine related bodies asked the question why aviation as a recreational pursuit merits a more beneficial tax structure to that of boating? "

It is my belief that many of the above genuinely believe it will make no difference. I also believe they are sadly mistaken, still won't affect my business as I don't sell boats & don't rely on them for a living. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[ukbaz]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

"It is my belief that many of the above genuinely believe it will make no difference. I also believe they are sadly mistaken, still won't affect my business as I don't sell boats & don't rely on them for a living."

Sadly Rubberduck it would appear from the apathy and inefective representations made, that they still are of the opinion that it won't harm that industry that much.

Do they really think that everyone is in the fortunate position of having bottomless pockets, and that in having to pay a 100% increase in a season's fuel costs we will all still leave enough to spend as usual on mooring fees, maintenance services, chandlery, engine servicing et al?

There's a ruddy great juggernaut heading the way of this "ostrich" if they do. Hordes of owners either giving up, moving abroad, or seriously changing their usage patterns...Yet another glorious British pastime for which we all make sacrifices to be decimated and for what?

 

[TrueBlue]

I pointed out -

The Avgas case several months ago in the hope that someone in the industry might, might just pick up the issue and see if it had any mileage.

Sadly no-one did.

There has been so much vitriol here and other YBW forums, that I think folks who might have been prepared to make a statement in support have been deterred. I think the vitriol came from low volume users who really don't give an *expletive* and just want to stir it up.

Unfortunately AVGAS is special as it is a higher octane than road fuel as is "brewed" (!) differently.

MGO for pleasure boating is specifically targeted by the EU regulations as not to be available, rebated, but I don't think AVGAS is ?? (not sure).

I think when the ordure hits the spinning blade next November, that the price for boaters will be £1.50 - £1.75 because of the lower volume of sales when compared to road fuel use. If that is true then many users, myself included, will be tempted to fill our boats via jerry cans just to save the difference between filling station and marina prices.

This will increase the risk of pollution. A very bad thing.

 

[adrianm]

Re: I pointed out -

I doubt that the aviation industry had two distinct camps in the same way that the boating has. There are so many people who want the fuel to go up because they believe it will make their lives better.

 

[Argonautical]

Re: I pointed out -

Guys, just a quickie, one other point worthy of note however.......

We are a much bigger, and hence much more lucrative audience all round. There are lot more diesel powered boats around than aircraft and helicopters!

Effort v Numbers............boaters loose, typical EU and Labour bullshit policy really

Jas. I'm dreading it!

 

[Sgeir]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

I seem to remember that there are peculiar circumstances about tax/duty on aviation fuel. Isn't it governed by international treaty?

 

[Bodach na mara]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

TrueBlue is wrong to class all "low volume" users as not giving a **** and wanting to stir it up. I probably use only about 60 litres per year but am extremely annoyed about the unfairness of charging road duty for fuel that is not used on the roads and in my case about 30% is used for heating and battery charging. If the rate for fuel at the marina is as high as he is suggesting, then I will be carrying it to the boat in cans, but not I think from the service station forecourt. I think the farm up the road may be able to provide some.

The aviation exemption also strikes me as unfair (to us) and although there may not be as many planes as boats, the tend to use a lot more fuel per hour. Mind you I was passed by a large motor boat last month and as I rolled about in its wake I did speculate on how many gallons per minute he was using and cherished the uncharitable thought that in two years he may use his boat less. Or slower. And preferrably a bit further away from other boats!

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

>>>
two years he may use his boat less. Or slower. And preferrably a bit further away from other boats!
>>>
Or remove his boat and expenditure from your local economy...

 

[halcyon]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

The other thing that annoys me is that the government can bend EU rules for Northern Rock, allowing them to make the £25 billion a loan, totally against EU rules. While we the boater who use red diesel, find EU rules cast in stone, unbendable, fixed, and look we can even charge you more.

If all we go bust, will HMG pay our mooring fees, and cost for us.

Brian

 

[rickp]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

Aviation has always been a bit strange in that if flying overseas, they could claim the duty back - but we couldn't on marine diesel (or petrol). If the duty is going to be increased to road duty, then shouldn't we be able to claim the duty back for an overseas trip?

Rick

 

[Nickcf]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

[ QUOTE ]
Aviation has always been a bit strange in that if flying overseas, they could claim the duty back - but we couldn't on marine diesel (or petrol). If the duty is going to be increased to road duty, then shouldn't we be able to claim the duty back for an overseas trip?

Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

You can but only if you travel far enough. see the previous thread
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1597078/an/0/page/0#1597078

 

[rickp]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

And yet for aircraft, a trip to Le Touquet is sufficient? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Rick

 

[Nickcf]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

but don't forget that the Channel Islands is still a duty free location. Red will still be available after Nov 2008 for leisure boats. I paid 35p/litre there this year (June)

 

[rickp]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

Which island? In Guernsey last Easter it was more expensive than the UK (though that was from Marine Works and Beaucette - not from the tanker).

Rick

 

[Nickcf]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

Tanker from St Sampsons

 

[MASH]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

Could it be that our "leaders" in Whitehall suspect that red is widely used in taxable applications (surely no one would do that...) but AVGAS is useless for anything but aircraft, and therefore cannot be "diverted" to other uses.

To the dull wit of the Whitehall bureautwat this might well suggest that AVGAS is "harmless" as no tax revenue is being lost, but as red is being widely misused than an attempt to claw back some of the "missing" revenue must be made.

To the poster who stated that aircraft use much more fuel than boats, Oh dear, where do I start? Pal, most light aircraft have one engine of less than 150HP and thus burn (1 GAL/20BHP/Hr as a rule of thumb) roughly 5 GPH at cruise power. Guess what, bigger ones use more! There are relatively few light aircraft in the twin 350Hp category - common as hell in boats...

BTW, aviators never use the slightly snide description "private" appended to any aircraft, any more than they would so refer to your private boats... or cars, or houses, or lawnmowers... What constitutes a Public aircraft? RAF?



Remember, flying is totally safe, all accidents occur at ground level.

 

[cliffordpope]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

It's surely a quite straightforward distinction:

Public transport = bus or train that anyone can get on, private transport = car for personal use

Public company = one with tradeable shares that anyone can buy, private company = one with non-quoted restricted share ownership.

So I image public plane = scheduled air flight, private plane = one just for you.

I could go on:

Public boat (more likely ferry, or hire boat) = one available to anyone , private boat = just you and me.

Public house = pub where anyone can drink, private house = mine.

 

[MASH]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

So why are aircraft so often described as "private" when cars, boats and houses are not? It implies a distinction in the mind of the speaker.

An airliner is not public, it is as privately owned as your boat, just available for hire.

A corporation bus (if any still exist) is public. An RAF Tornado is publically owned, though not publically available. Many "private" aircraft are publically available for hire via a flying club, so why the distinction?

T'ain't logical!

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Re: Private planes get classed as \"special case\" for derogation!

>>>
T'ain't logical!
>>>

Its socialist politics, when did logic enter into it?