Princess or Ferretti , what boat would you choose?

If you're prepared to strip the old teak yourself, and make your own patterns for the new ones, I think you could put new decks on for quite a lot less than the "full service" prices jfm mentions.

I fitted new teak to my flybridge (58' boat), and paid £3,500 for the panels made to size, €1,100 for labour to fit them, plus a bit for the glue and caulking. The full service quote in Antibes was well over €20,000. I don't know the Canados layout, or the acreage of teak, but i'm guessing you could fit new 9mm teak to cockpit and fly for €15,000 ish on a semi-DIY basis.

The boat looks fab by the way, beautiful clean lines and the blue hull really suits her.
 
Divemaster1 said:
Fuel consumption should be about 200g/KWh. when in tune.
Click to expand...

Thank you Alf,
How does consumption of a 2 stroke diesel compare to a modern 4 stroke ?
(the speced figure doesn't tell me something)
with outboard engines the difference is huge

isn't fuel consumption going to be eye watering on such a heavy boat,
shouldn't I better count in a pair of new modern 4stroke engines ?
I know you don't like to hear this, but we have to face reality :)

thanks again for a very comprehensive and usefull post !
 
Nick_H said:
If you're prepared to strip the old teak yourself, and make your own patterns for the new ones, I think you could put new decks on for quite a lot less than the "full service" prices jfm mentions.

I fitted new teak to my flybridge (58' boat), and paid £3,500 for the panels made to size, €1,100 for labour to fit them, plus a bit for the glue and caulking. The full service quote in Antibes was well over €20,000. I don't know the Canados layout, or the acreage of teak, but i'm guessing you could fit new 9mm teak to cockpit and fly for €15,000 ish on a semi-DIY basis.

The boat looks fab by the way, beautiful clean lines and the blue hull really suits her.
Click to expand...

thank you Nick, I will remember that there are different methods / solutions /prices for the teak.

re your post about the tender on the FB,
you're right that a tender should alway's be in a "ready to leave" position when the divers are under water, but in some occasions, close to shore, or in flat water, and main boat not anchored, the tender can remain on the FB.
But then the platform should be empty.

I know dive centers that go out in dangerous water, with a displacement boat, Without a tender.
Last year I saw a displacement boat with divers in the northsea, (strong tidal curent) without a tender. I would never do that !
 
BartW said:
Thank you Alf,
How does consumption of a 2 stroke diesel compare to a modern 4 stroke ?
........isn't fuel consumption going to be eye watering on such a heavy boat,
shouldn't I better count in a pair of new modern 4stroke engines ?
I know you don't like to hear this, but we have to face reality :)
...QUOTE]


OK... I may have been a bit wrong (think the DD's may run at 220 gramme/KWh)... but will check my spec sheet....

A brand new Volvo D12 run at 207gramme/KWh... (wrong size engine, I know... but this is just an estimate for fuel efficiency calc's)

With 220g/kwh for the DD and 207g/KWh for the D12makes and so that is a difference of...(when converted to Litres 0.1892L and 0.1780 respectively per KW hour when converted to unit weight of 0.86 which is average for MGO).

If you draw out 800 HP of each engine = 1600 HP, which equates to 1193 KW...

The DD's will draw about 225L per hour
..and the Volvo's about 212L per hour

So a difference of about 13L per hour in difference.

Count in about 200 hrs per year = to about 2600L in difference per year.

Take the price of a two new engines, deduct the cost of a re-builds of the DD's or two ... and you still will be hard pushed to justify the cost of new engines over a 5 year plus at 200 hrs per year period (particularly as the MAN's also will need re-work at some stage)

I am all for 4 strokes and efficiency for new(er) boats, but for a boat like this the savings does not add up... in my simple mind that is ....
Click to expand...
 
question about the hull shape
(this is all new to me)

i-3CprQ3W-L.jpg


when I look at the bow section of the hull, it seems quite round and flat,
not at all deep V as I am used from my Karnic,
and like I have seen on some other bigger boats.

anybody know something about the behaviour of this boat ?
 
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BartW said:
More news here,

mike you gave a valid remark !
the boat has been painted blue in 2003 with a two component paint,
the orriginal white looked bad, and the owner wanted bleu....

Is this a disadvantage or not ?
at least I can see how the paint looks after 7 years.

Still concerned about these old engines, they say they have 1500hrs,
Specs say: 23kncruising/28knmax,
but when I look at similar boats for sale, one say’s 20/25 and another 21/26.
I don’t need to cruise at >25kn, but I don’t want to push the engines at maximum revs either,
Slightly younger models have MAN 1100 as opposed to these GM 1040’s ???
any comment is apreciated, thanks !
Click to expand...

With regard to the paint, I'd want to know exactly why it was repainted. It could be that the owner just wanted a different colour. There's nothing wrong with painted hulls per se: Hatteras paint their hulls. On the other hand, the paint might have been applied to hide something. Either way you need to understand why.
With regard to the engines, 1500hrs is nothing if the engines have been well maintained. Obviously, you should get a GM expert to check them out and take oil samples. Dont worry about what speed figures are quoted in the sales details. Sometimes sellers state the manufacturers original figures, sometimes they state the actual figures that the boat is achieving now and sometimes they just make the figures up. What is important is that the engines are achieving max rpm under load or just above with a clean bottom and the boat achieves a reasonable speed at this rpm, lets say above 25kts. You will feel through your backside during the seatrial whether the boat is running well.
It would be madness to chuck away 2 perfectly decent engines if they are running well. The cost of 2 new engines (£100k?) will never justify the improvement in fuel consumption. You have to appreciate that the running costs of a boat of this size are going to be on a whole different planet to your Karnic. Just as a guess, I would think that you are looking at about 0.3-0.4 nautical miles per gallon @ 20kts. So thats about €12 per nautical mile in fuel at last season's Croatian fuel prices:eek:
 
BartW said:
question about the hull shape
(this is all new to me)


when I look at the bow section of the hull, it seems quite round and flat,
not at all deep V as I am used from my Karnic,
and like I have seen on some other bigger boats.

anybody know something about the behaviour of this boat ?
Click to expand...

The hull of a big heavy boat doesn't have to be so deep vee'd forward as small light boats. A big heavy boat can just pound its way through the waves. Having said that, I have found that looking at a hull from different angles can make a large difference as to how deep vee the hull looks. My own boat is supposed to have one of the deepest vees Ferretti ever used but it doesn't look like it in photos. But what counts is how it feels at sea. There's a lot more to seakeeping than just how deep the vee of the hull is. Also dont forget that the boats most of us have are designed as cruising boats, not race boats so the hull has to be compromised for the accomodation inside. Looking at your photo, the hull looks much the same shape as any other
 
Bart the older 401, V12 MAN's in a 40 tonne boat around 70' at cruise speed 24 - 25 knots, 1800 rpm, will use 250 litres per hour, or around 10.5 litres per N. mile.

However if you wanted to run slower, between 9 - 10 knots if the sea conditions are calm (beam and following) and time is not important, consumption is estimated at around 70 litres per hour at 1000 rpm, or approx. 7.4 litres per n.mile.

These low speed/rpm figures are from published documents, as time frames, sea conditions and no electronic fuel flow metres, allow us to travel at displacement speeds for long enough to get 'eye witness' results after long sea passages.

A 70' planing hull will still slam in a moderate head sea Bart, and when you are getting 'down and dirty' and slogging it out at 9 knots, in a wind against tide around your least favourite headland, make sure your boat has a 'generous' bow ;).
 
Alf, Callum, Mike, ....

If you had choice between a

1990 1080HP GM (2stroke)

or a

1992 1100HP MAN (4stroke)

what would you choose ?
and if you could have a 1991 1100HP MTU ?

I know there are many other criterea, on the engines only,
and the need of a surveyer and all that,
but if you only had the above to choose from ?
 
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We would all lean towards what we are comfortable with, based on what our budgets were and how much maintenance we would be happy doing ourself.

There are relaxed GM, MTU & MAN's at 1100 HP and there will be stressed ones... and those in between, so without detailed information about engine types/models it is difficult to say.

Then there is cost of parts, availability of both parts and service techies in the area you intend to cruise/keep your boat.

If service or parts for one particular engine is difficult in your area, I would dismiss this at the outset. If all is readily available then I'd start looing into service costs, parts, availability etc., as well as reputation of both engine and the companies which services / provides parts.
 
Bart

Alf has summed it up very well.

The biggest DD's I have had anything to do with where only 8V92's @ 700hp, and as Alf maintains, parts are cheap and systems are straight forward. According to other sources, the 12V92 was always regarded as the best power to weight in their day, but don't like too much slow rev work.

As previously stated the V12 MAN's (essential engines) have not given us any problem (1100 hrs), nor previous owner, but during the electrolosis issue, both the heat exchanger cores had to be replaced for an eye watering GBP 4K (parts and freight), other than that, MAN have not been called upon.

Never been involved with MTU's in any way.
 
BartW said:
Alf, Callum, Mike, ....

If you had choice between a

1990 1080HP GM (2stroke)

or a

1992 1100HP MAN (4stroke)

what would you choose ?
and if you could have a 1991 1100HP MTU ?

I know there are many other criterea, on the engines only,
and the need of a surveyer and all that,
but if you only had the above to choose from ?
Click to expand...

Bart, sorry, I wouldn't have the technical knowledge to decide between the two and, if it was me, my decision would be based solely on an engineer's report on which set of engines are in the best condition. All things being equal, I suspect that the MAN and MTU engines will be costlier to maintain due to higher parts prices but if somebody knows different, I'm happy to be flamed. The other big factor that would weigh on my decision would be how close an authorised dealer was to my home berth. I've found it difficult to get parts in Croatia and I would want to be assured that there was a dealer nearby with a good stock of parts for my engines.
Perhaps the best thing to do is find out where the local dealers for each brand are based, talk to each one how well they are set up to service those particular engines and ask them to quote typical service and parts prices. Then you can make a comparison
 
just an update in case somebody is interested

at "Boot" in Dusseldorf I spoke with the people that make the EOM lift platform for ao Fairline, and many others,

http://www.h-btechnics.com/platforms/platform_fairline_sqadron_78.htm

they make this for many types of boats, also some older types

here it sits on an old Cantieri di pisa
http://www.h-btechnics.com/samples/akhira_18.htm

or on a Grand banks in Belgium
http://www.h-btechnics.com/samples/grand_banks_54.htm

they have a solution for gliding steps on such a platform
I'm sorry that pics are still in swmbo's Iphone

In this link, look at the animations on the bottom,
put your cursor on the animation,
http://www.h-btechnics.com/produkte.htm

last week I found a 1992 Canados 60 with retrofitted transom opening and steps to the bathing platform, (done by Canados yard) really nice integrated almost as if it was like that originally.
Unfortunotly the add was taken from the net when I asked for more info, as it was sold.

I'm making appointments for looking at two boats in Rome !!
 
Were all very interested. What are u going to look at? Don't forget lots of piccies :) I get the feeling u are moving away from the FL's or SS. Can't blame you as the likes of Canados do look like another level.
 
Divemaster1 said:
There are relaxed GM, MTU & MAN's at 1100 HP and there will be stressed ones... and those in between, so without detailed information about engine types/models it is difficult to say.

Then there is cost of parts, availability of both parts and service techies in the area you intend to cruise/keep your boat.
Click to expand...

soon we will go looking at two Canados 70"s

one with a GM12V92TA 1080 HP, unfortunotly this one is on the dry, so engines probably can't be started.

and another one with MAN 1100HP

do you have tips what I should look for on these engines ?

we won't be joined by a diesel engine specialist, as we (Elly and myself) first want to know if such a boat suits us...
unless you would have some spare time, and would like a FOC trip to Rome ! :)

Have asked a friend in Dubrovnic Croatia about diesel engine service in that area, He owns a diving center and has owned many different boats.
He answered that MAN and CAT have good service and spareparts availability. He didn't give an answer nor advice on GM nor MTU.
 
FARSCO said:
Were all very interested. What are u going to look at? Don't forget lots of piccies :) I get the feeling u are moving away from the FL's or SS. Can't blame you as the likes of Canados do look like another level.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting Farsco, yes the piccies will come (in a few weeks hopefully)
FL and SS were never on my list,
FL have a radar arch where I like the tender (in that model/age)
SS not really my taste sorry for that

P en F seemed a good compromise, but still prefer a boat with more Character ;)
 
BartW said:
P en F seemed a good compromise, but still prefer a boat with more Character ;)
Click to expand...


Why not ask if MapisM would be available for a Rome based inspection. Mario will have good knowledge of the local product no doubt.
Rumour also has it that he knows a thing or three about good wine also :)
 
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