PRINCESS 52 - Joystick or bow/stern thrusters?

[Asm]

Hi All,

Currently decided on a new Princess 52, however I can't get a straight answer on whether to go for the Joysick, or the Bow/Stern truster helm controls with hold function.

Reasons given for/against are below, but I can't get a definitive answer;

JOYSTICK
- used to it in current stern driven boat (52 on props) and naturally understand it.
- apparently the joystick is used by the "new generation" and is somehow new-school (whatever that means)
- However not enough power in this joystick in the wind, and over revs the engines often (why would they offer it in that case?)

BOW/STERN THRUSTER SWITCHES
- what all the experienced skippers I've met prefer (but that's so the controls translate to all the boats they skipper and deliver, whereas this will be my only boat)

- a P52 sits better in the water as a heavy prop driven vessel, and I will find this system more intuitive.
(Although PMYS can't find me a boat to test it on???)

Thanks for any advice!

I would opt for the addition of the stern thruster. Usually the manufactures standard bow offering is in the 'just acceptable' power range. Often, the manufacturer offers a thruster upgrade package including proportional control, so it's an easy choice. I find proportional control, handy, but in no way essential. Don't forget a couple of side benefits, the control gives you the temperature of the motors and the remaining time to run, not running at maximum also extends the run time. I know I and others on this forum has been in a situation when the thruster just stops working through overheating, usually just when you need it the most!

 

[benjenbav]

Personally I would go for the simple approach with the thrusters but it's worth thinking whether having joystick control would help the resale value. If it costs more then it definitely would in the world of man-maths.

 

[Hurricane]

Don't forget a couple of side benefits, the control gives you the temperature of the motors and the remaining time to run, not running at maximum also extends the run time. I know I and others on this forum has been in a situation when the thruster just stops working through overheating, usually just when you need it the most!

I hadn't thought of overheating.
I can't remember ever overheating ours (unlike our windlass!!!) but it has always worried me.
I believe that most electric thrusters overheat after about 45 secs continuous use.

So, you get a motor temp on the display - that sounds worthwhile.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I believe that most electric thrusters overheat after about 45 secs continuous use.

How many forumites on here have experienced a thruster cutting out? I've had boats with thrusters for I guess about 15 yrs and I can't remember a thruster ever cutting out on me so how big a problem is it in reality?

 

[Chill]

How many forumites on here have experienced a thruster cutting out? I've had boats with thrusters for I guess about 15 yrs and I can't remember a thruster ever cutting out on me so how big a problem is it in reality?

But you know how to drive your boat so will not be using the BT that much. Get a novice at the helm and they only know how to move the boat around with the BT.

Think the vairiable option would come in handy using the hold function. If its just two of you on the boat you could leave the helm to secure the lines knowing the boat will be held against the dock.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

But you know how to drive your boat so will not be using the BT that much.

No I certainly wouldn't say that. We're based in the Med and all moorings are stern to so I'm using the thruster a fair bit to keep the bow up to the wind. I was once given a demo of an Elegance which had hydraulic thrusters fitted and the dealer did delight in pinning it against the fuel dock using the thrusters alone but I thought it was all a bit embarassing because the thrusters were making so much racket that we might as well have had a big arrow nailed to the flybridge with a bubble saying 'wa***r' attached to it. So yes I try not to use my thrusters for long periods but I'm certainly very happy to have them when the boat gets out of shape a bit

Where's hlb? We need his purist's view (or is it puritan view) on thrusters

 

[Nigelpickin]

Hi Henry,




Should I be firm with PMYS about testing a variable bow/stern thruster boat, as everyone I ask its a long drawn out no...

Yes! And report back when you've had a play.

I imagine its a five figure option so you should be offered a test drive....

I've spoken to a couple of dealers who describe the new shaft drive, thruster combined joystick systems as being as good as IPS - (fairline & princess), neither sounded convicing or sincere

If a system exists that provides the benefits of good, solid shaft drive performance coupled with the convenience of IPS stlye vectoring, spinning and holding position then it would be very inticing.

We, (and certainly not me), are not all master yachtsmen and whilst I agree that a bar should be set in terms of proficiency, theres nothing wrong with tech that makes life more enjoyable; for me, an effective joystick does just that.

Would like to hear what PMYS offer in terms of support on this.....

 

[rubberduck]

How many forumites on here have experienced a thruster cutting out? I've had boats with thrusters for I guess about 15 yrs and I can't remember a thruster ever cutting out on me so how big a problem is it in reality?

We have going into St Kats, just meant we had to do it the other way. We have a joystick, Son Sam & I usually use throttles & thrusters if needed, actually easier IMO. However, I never know when I'm going to suddenly double up in pain due to issues with insides, even have a map drawn by surgeon to show where he put everything as it is a little, err different & bits get trapped or inflamed, & if that happens with just me & Nicky on board, it will be a lot more comfortable for me if Nicky can moor up using Joystick & remote. Hasn't happened on boat, but has in car, which is easier as sitting low down in seat, standing on a boat would not be fun.

 

[kcrane]

I agree with Henry except for the variable thruster argument.

Bowthrusters tend to be standard on boats of this size but IMO it is worth upgrading them to the most powerful that they offer.
The bow is the one part that you can't control positively in a tight situation - bowthrusters resolve that problem.
But if there is a strong wind, it would be easier if the bowthruster was powerful enough to combat it.

Stern thruster
I would definitely fit one.
I don't use it a huge amount for actual maneuvering but once you are in your berth, it (like the bow thruster) is extremely useful whilst your crew are setting all the lines etc.
In the Med, both thrusters are very handy at keeping the boat lined up whilst reversing into a tight berth.
Most on here will agree that you don't actually need a stern thruster but it is really handy to have as a reserve if you get things wrong.
I've always reckoned that a that a stern thruster can save you its cost in the saving of any knocks that you might get bu not having one.
And sometimes, it is nice to cheat and use it when you otherwise should use your skill!!!

As to variable thrust - I really can't see the point.
Generally speaking, when you need a thruster - you need it - and a good blast makes the difference.
Just "pussy footing around" with them is a waste of time - IMO

As to joystick control - IMO - it really isn't necessary.

EDIT
Just reread Deleted User's post - he is saying much the same.

+1 so you don't feel too bad that Deleted User beat you to it - in any case I agree !

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

We have going into St Kats, just meant we had to do it the other way.

If memory serves that can be a trifle hairy when the current is running, especially on the ebb

 

[gjgm]

How many forumites on here have experienced a thruster cutting out? I've had boats with thrusters for I guess about 15 yrs and I can't remember a thruster ever cutting out on me so how big a problem is it in reality?

Yes,I wondered that too.I do remember one time in lymington..the tranquility of the morning was broken by a particularly mechanical grind of a b/t.. oh well,such is marina life.30 seconds later I began to wonder what was going on..had the joystick jammed maybe?.I strolled up to the hard to get a view.By now the rather nasty rasping was begining to tire...there was a fair sized french sailing boat leaving doing what I think was a 270degree turn using only his b/t.Whether his batteries or b/t gave up,I nener knew...hell, if you have got it,flaunt it,baby...

 

[Jonmendez]

Having played with both I am firmly in the camp of separate thrusters rather than joystick, simply as I really like being able to tweak just one item to adjust what I want. Sure the joystick seems simple initially but when it's a really difficult situation or blooming windy I never feel as confident with joysticks as separate items and that's on all the drive systems. Just my two pence worth.

 

[2013PrincessV39]

Having played with both I am firmly in the camp of separate thrusters rather than joystick, simply as I really like being able to tweak just one item to adjust what I want. Sure the joystick seems simple initially but when it's a really difficult situation or blooming windy I never feel as confident with joysticks as separate items and that's on all the drive systems. Just my two pence worth.

Hi Jon!

Thanks for your reply; definitely worth more than two pence when contemplating a boat worth a million!!

It's a shame that this kind of information isn't so readily available in a heated purchase situation when at a boat show. I always end up feeling like I've done more research and know more facts about the boat in interested in than the person trying to sell me the thing. For this one, I think we will make a purchase an decision we away from the madness!

J

 

[henryf]

Hi Jon!

Thanks for your reply; definitely worth more than two pence when contemplating a boat worth a million!!

It's a shame that this kind of information isn't so readily available in a heated purchase situation when at a boat show. I always end up feeling like I've done more research and know more facts about the boat in interested in than the person trying to sell me the thing. For this one, I think we will make a purchase an decision we away from the madness!

J

It's a very interesting point you raise.

Unlike a car manufacturer there aren't demo boats you can take for a spin or use for the weekend. We have had people charter us to get a feel for what boat ownership, size, maufacturer etc is like. Should manufacturers provide that service ? It's a hard one.

I had an interesting chat with someone at the London boat show. They were discussing a boat with the salesman and asked a question which had a very simple answer (for me as an owner-operator of a similar craft). I stepped in and saved the salesman whilst extolling the virtues of the boat in question.

Cost means that unlike cars, the person selling to you will never have used the boat in anger. Yes, they will have moved it around the marina, they will have been out on a couple of sea trails (possibly) but they won't have spent a week on board as skipper. A good skipper can work round most design flaws but as an owner you really know what counts.

Picking from a list of options you know what you've been told to say but what about the truth? Some things such as JFM's stabilisers are bloody expensive in the monetary sense, but free in that you get all your money back come re-sale and the boat sells quicker. Other things might be ticked off just because you're on a roll and it's "only" £5k but in the scheme of things they are a waste.

I cheat and buy stock boats where someone has made the choices for me. What I will say is there are things fitted which I would never have chosen myself but having inherited them wouldn't be without now.

Henry

 

[Nigelpickin]

It's a very interesting point you raise.

Unlike a car manufacturer there aren't demo boats you can take for a spin or use for the weekend. We have had people charter us to get a feel for what boat ownership, size, maufacturer etc is like. Should manufacturers provide that service ? It's a hard one.

I had an interesting chat with someone at the London boat show. They were discussing a boat with the salesman and asked a question which had a very simple answer (for me as an owner-operator of a similar craft). I stepped in and saved the salesman whilst extolling the virtues of the boat in question.

Cost means that unlike cars, the person selling to you will never have used the boat in anger. Yes, they will have moved it around the marina, they will have been out on a couple of sea trails (possibly) but they won't have spent a week on board as skipper. A good skipper can work round most design flaws but as an owner you really know what counts.

Picking from a list of options you know what you've been told to say but what about the truth? Some things such as JFM's stabilisers are bloody expensive in the monetary sense, but free in that you get all your money back come re-sale and the boat sells quicker. Other things might be ticked off just because you're on a roll and it's "only" £5k but in the scheme of things they are a waste.

I cheat and buy stock boats where someone has made the choices for me. What I will say is there are things fitted which I would never have chosen myself but having inherited them wouldn't be without now.

Henry

The above does not reflect my experience, nor does the reluctance of the OP's dealer to demonstrate the drive options.

My most recent boat for example:

Deal done at factory, deposit handed across; options discussed but not firmed up.

Appointment made with dealer, (Ancasta @ Hamble). At this stage we go through the full specification, fabrics, trim levels, factory options and dealer options. We are asked if there are any specific options that we would like to see, (In my case I wanted a demonstration of the nav package and the Volvo cruise control/positioning system; a 20k extra).
The morning at Hamble was spent looking at a couple of boats and having a spin out on an appropriately fitted boat, the afternoon was then left to tick check boxes.
There was no pressure to sign off quickly and the dealer went out of their way to ensure that we new what we were in for.

The dealership knows the brand well, Prestige now and previously Sealine, this in some part because they arrange regular cruise in company events and get to really use the boats, but also because they have really good relationships with their owners, who are happy to demonstrate and impart information before the fact.

Sorry Henry, it's not a hard one...it's just that the delta between the best and worst in sector, (customer service/support), is huge. I've been in exactly the same situation in car dealerships, boat shows, even CBit and it's alarming how little knowledge some salespeople have and it should serve as a warning to the customer.
My boat represents a big chunk of cash for me, I'm sure for others it would be spare change I wouldn't be prepared to sign for a product that they were not able/willing demonstrate; that's a bonkers proposition.
Of course if you represent customer zero, the first adopter then it's a little different, of course it's then in the dealers interest to get you a deal that reflects this and your willingness to feed back into their client base.

 

[jrudge]

This is also reflective of our experience. Whilst the deal may have been done at the boat show there was a lot of firming up to do, fabric selections, kit etc. we were given test drives on the same boat ( albeit about 24 months old), and looked at a brand new sold one ( that we rightly could not drive) that had pretty much the same options so we knew exactly what we were getting.

The dealer ( EBY) were totally knowledgable in all respects or all options, answers to our suggestions and requests. In particular quite a few answers were, you might, you might not. Leave it for now and if you want once you have used the boat for a while we will retro fit. (Water Maker / Gyro Stabs).

Whilst Princess may not have the exact boat hanging around I would imagine they could lay their hands on a joystick boat with a few phone calls - customers generally get on with their dealers and if someone said can we borrow your boat for an hour and we will put in a few quid of fuel or clean it next time you are passing I can't really see many people saying no, especially as it will be driven by the dealer skipper who probably delivered the thing in the first place. If they can't presumably no one has ordered one!

 

[henryf]

But the fact is Nigel you had to hand over a deposit and commit to buying a product you hadn't tried.

With our car business we don't ask for or expect a deposit before allowing test drives. We don't even represent a manufacturer, we are totally independent selling no new product.

When I visited Ancasta prior to buying the current boat my experience was very different to yours. The large number of sales staff and vast array of boats meant there was little or no specific knowledge. I definitely knew more about the boats I was looking at than the sales chap. To be fair he probably knew more about sailing yachts than I did.

Ancasta are showing a couple of Prestige models as available for immediate sale, if that's the case then they may well be happy to use them for demonstration purposes and it is possible that people pretty much always buy the same spec. They are trying to establish a brand and part of the deal could well have been stock boats available. They are showing as brand new but listed as 2014 so one would assume possibly not the fastest selling models. Does that affect how hard the dealer works?

With Princess who I know and the OP is dealing with they have a fairly extensive range extending from 39 feet to 40 metres. Obviously there aren't going to be demo boats available across the line up. In theory they are working to a zero stock, all customer boats order book if possible. My understanding is that someone like Swanwick have to pre-order slots and sell them as and when they can. Invariably this does mean sometimes they end up with un-sold stock which gets delivered.

Should they have a demo boat or a couple of demo boats so show all the latest technology? Possibly although stuff like IPS is only available on a very small part of their range. Also an 80 footer is a very different beast to a 50 footer. I suspect if I wanted to check out a Prestige 750 with Ancasta they would struggle.

I don't claim to have the answer.

Henry

 

[Nigelpickin]

This is also reflective of our experience. Whilst the deal may have been done at the boat show there was a lot of firming up to do, fabric selections, kit etc. we were given test drives on the same boat ( albeit about 24 months old), and looked at a brand new sold one ( that we rightly could not drive) that had pretty much the same options so we knew exactly what we were getting.

The dealer ( EBY) were totally knowledgable in all respects or all options, answers to our suggestions and requests. In particular quite a few answers were, you might, you might not. Leave it for now and if you want once you have used the boat for a while we will retro fit. (Water Maker / Gyro Stabs).

Whilst Princess may not have the exact boat hanging around I would imagine they could lay their hands on a joystick boat with a few phone calls - customers generally get on with their dealers and if someone said can we borrow your boat for an hour and we will put in a few quid of fuel or clean it next time you are passing I can't really see many people saying no, especially as it will be driven by the dealer skipper who probably delivered the thing in the first place. If they can't presumably no one has ordered one!

+ 1
EBY are going to be a tough act to follow/replace for FL me thinks

 

[jrudge]

If the dealer knows you I doubt they would want a deposit prior to a test drive. I have never paid one pre driving ( what were stock boats in fairness not on brokerage).

If you walk in off the street then I suppose the issue is (a) who owns the boat - dealer or customer and (b) do they think you are legit - which I guess is the same as the car game. The definition of legit is of course down to individuals - they may get it right, they may get it wrong.

In Mallorca I was looking at a Sunseeker. The boat was out of the water, but the broker offered to get me on a sister ship with no issue by making a few calls. We didn't do that in the end, but I think most people if they know you appreciate you need to drive the thing!

 

[Nigelpickin]

But the fact is Nigel you had to hand over a deposit and commit to buying a product you hadn't tried.

With our car business we don't ask for or expect a deposit before allowing test drives. We don't even represent a manufacturer, we are totally independent selling no new product.

When I visited Ancasta prior to buying the current boat my experience was very different to yours. The large number of sales staff and vast array of boats meant there was little or no specific knowledge. I definitely knew more about the boats I was looking at than the sales chap. To be fair he probably knew more about sailing yachts than I did.

Ancasta are showing a couple of Prestige models as available for immediate sale, if that's the case then they may well be happy to use them for demonstration purposes and it is possible that people pretty much always buy the same spec. They are trying to establish a brand and part of the deal could well have been stock boats available. They are showing as brand new but listed as 2014 so one would assume possibly not the fastest selling models. Does that affect how hard the dealer works?

With Princess who I know and the OP is dealing with they have a fairly extensive range extending from 39 feet to 40 metres. Obviously there aren't going to be demo boats available across the line up. In theory they are working to a zero stock, all customer boats order book if possible. My understanding is that someone like Swanwick have to pre-order slots and sell them as and when they can. Invariably this does mean sometimes they end up with un-sold stock which gets delivered.

Should they have a demo boat or a couple of demo boats so show all the latest technology? Possibly although stuff like IPS is only available on a very small part of their range. Also an 80 footer is a very different beast to a 50 footer. I suspect if I wanted to check out a Prestige 750 with Ancasta they would struggle.

I don't claim to have the answer.

Henry

Just to clarify, we dropped 5k on a 600k offer, subject to test drive and part exchange value.

I agree with pretty much all you are saying, I'm sure that is the op had spoken to the right guy/girl at Princess he would have recieved a comprehensive response and I bet the right person could put him on a boat with the options he needs to see, the same would have been the case with you at Ancasta...

Just goes to show how important training is!

Funnily enough they invited me to see some of the bigger boats but both my heart and head are focussed on other things so I declined.

Their 'stock' boats tent to be hull slots, I think it's a bit naughty that they do this but understand why.

I'm certainly not having a dig at PMYS FWIW, just at lousy sales people.

Ancasta are selling a Prestige a month, not bad for year two but in context, my model the 500 is already past hull 400...

They answer probably lies in Training and Customer service mandates, dealer stock boats with open days and some kind of 'rent back' agreement where deals are done with a view to incentivising owners for visits and demonstrations.

It's probably not too difficult but the will needs exist and Brokers are a funny lot