Practical boat speed and pointing to wind

[winsbury]

According to the standard calculation our 7.1m loa displacement hull at 18.5feet lwl should max out at 5.8knots. In practice the max I have seen on the log is about 4.8 knots ( except when surfing on the run when Ive seen considerably higher for brief periods.) We can also sail approx 45 degrees to the apparent wind but its very slow, rarely more than 2.8knots; coming off to 60 degrees sees the speed increase to around 4knots max. In reality I rarely get these figures consistently unless I'm concentrating hard on helming and sail trimming. The boat is a bilge keel which I presume has some effect though when sufficiently heeled in a good F5-6 the leeward keel is near horizontal and skimming the waves so it seems to me the boat acts more like a fin keel at that point.

The reason I mention this is last weekend I thought we were cracking along upwind when a somewhat larger boat overtook sailing at what seemed to be considerably less than 40 degrees to the wind so clearly there are better designs out there. We are considering upgrading to a larger cruising boat next season but sailing ability; ie speed and pointing will be key decision makers as to which one to go for rather than which is roomiest below. Since these criteria are determined primarily by lwl and keel design I'm trying to shortlist based on good technical data (and reliable hearsay.) Although we are cruisers rather than racers we do rather like to get to the destination in reasonable time too and since nearly every destination seems to be upwind a target cruising speed ( ie without constant sail tweaking ) of 6+ knots close hauled is what I'm looking for.

A recent sail on a friends Bavaria 36 fin keel, heavily reefed in 30 knots yielded about 6 knots on a reach but she didnt point upwind very well, in fact we could only get to about 55 degrees and made almost no headway against the current as a result so ended up motoring (awful.) I realise this isnt the best performing boat of that size and reefing will have spoiled it too but was surprised how poorly it sailed windward. I would rather have less creature comforts on board than sacrifice so much performance.

What does the good and wise here think... which boats should I be looking at; are the numbers above in keeping with what you would expect or am I just a rotten sailor ? Our budget is tight and will be in the order of £50k at best.

 

[johnalison]

It's a while since I cruised in a boat that size - it was a fin keeled Cirrus. I think we probably made about four knots though the water close-hauled, but didn't have a speed log in those days.

I am a bit alarmed that your lee keel is horizontal, I'm rather hoping you meant weather keel!

My observation has been that by and large, the bigger the boat, the closer to the wind it will point, however, most boats from around 30' will do something over 5-5 1/2 knots to windward. The main difference with bilge or some shallow fins is that they make more leeway, in some case much more.

Factors which will lead a boat to sail well to windward, in no particular order, might be:
A fine entry rather than a bluff bow
An efficient sail plan, such as many current fractional rigs
Good quality sails, especially a laminate jib in higher winds
An efficient, fin keel, though there are some decent twins, such a the Sadler 290
A skilled helmsman, of course

Some boats will sail well enough in flat sea conditions but very slowly in anything of a chop. Modern lightweight boats such as the smaller Firsts seem to skim over ther water very efficiently, but not all new designs will be very relaxing to sail, especially those without a forefoot. I think you need to develop an eye for how a boat will sai from looking at its hull and rig. No doubt more technical replies will enlighten you more than I can.

 

[winsbury]

yes I would be alarmed if that was correct too - my mistake, well spotted.

 

[lw395]

7m boats are not optimised for F6, Bav 36's are not in their element at 30knots true wind.
Force 3 to F5 performance is what tends to matter IMHO.
Some would say F2-F4/5.

I don't know about Pegasus boats, but I've sailed 7m Duettes that point ok, go fairly well etc.

If you can only get 2.8 knots at 45deg to the apparent, either your sails are dead, your hull is filthy, or your sailing skills could be greatly improved, unless the Pegasus is a really slow boat? Or your log is plain wrong?
6 knots close hauled is on the high side for a medium boat, but 5 or 5.5 should be do-able from a 33ft boat over a reasonable wind range.
Maybe try to get out on some different boats and get some idea whether you'd benefit from a bit of training/coaching?

£50k is a fair budget.
Maybe invest a little in getting to sail other boats and/or getting a bit of coaching?

 

[Concerto]

I agree with most of what johnalison has said an would add that setting the sails correctly will also make you sail far faster. I would recommend you try doing some cruiser racing as this will teach you a lot about getting the best out of any boat.

If you want good windward performance then you will be looking more towards a classic design with not too broad a transom. Your budget will certainly give you plenty of choice on the secondhand market, but you do need to decide on how important certain aspects of the boat are most important to you. Also remember as you go up in size everything increases in power, so a 32 ft boat is more powerful than a 30 ft one.

Can I make some suggestions as to what you may require in your search.
1 Standing headroom in all cabins.
2 3/4 rig for easier handling.
3 Fin keel for performance.
4 Roller genoa for ease of handling.
5 Do you need an aft cabin or aft heads. Both usually increase the aft sections and affect sailing performance.
6 The age of the boat. Older designs can sail better and are structually stronger. Also allows you make improvements within your budget.
7. Do you need all mod cons like hot and cold water, or a fridge.
8 How well maintained is the engine or has it been replaced.
9 Has the rigging been replaced recently.
10 Overall condition. You may pay a little more for a well maintained boat, but you should have fewer problems.
11 What extras are in the specification as buying all safety gear, crockery, inflateable, flares, etc can be quite expensive.
12 Where are you berthing. Do you need to walk aboard or 240v, as in a marina, also are berths available.

I could keep adding to the list. The final choice will be yours, but not knowing your exact requirements, it is difficult to advise any specific boats at present. For your information I sail a Westerly Fulmar because it is easy to sail well, beautifully well balanced and tempered, used in the past by sailing schools as a true all weather boat, and has a good practical interior layout for sea use.

 

[winsbury]

Its quite likely the log is wrong especially at lower speeds, I cleaned a bunch of barnacles off the paddle wheel last week so will hopefully get some better readings next time out now it spins much more balanced and free. She's coppercoated so her bottom might be a bit slimey but is free of any major growth. I can certainly keep up with other similar sized boats up to 8m on a beat and in most cases we are a little quicker so I think the paddle wheel is probably the cause of the low windward reading.

Pegasus is pretty seaworthy as far as I can tell; she needs 10 knots to really get moving and is comfy up to 20-22knots without a reef and up to about 25-28 with one reef; that said coming in over Chichester bar on bank holiday Monday in a following SE F6 wind just after high tide in the pouring rain was a bit more exciting than I was entirely happy with although the boat handled it.

The Fulmar looks very much like what I have in mind - wheel steering is a real bonus [edit: correction a wheel just happened to be fitted on the first one I looked at] and I like the lines of the hull, very similar shape to the Pegasus in fact with narrow transom and sharp bow. That said, how does a long keel compare to a fin as far as performance is concerned (yes, I know slow speed manouverability suffers.)

 

[Seajet]

I know the Pegasus and do think it sounds like your log is under-reading, inc at higher speeds.

There was a twin keel Fulmar at my club and she went very well indeed ! Having seen that on numerous occasions I'd go for a TK one for the versatility & if applicaple cheaper moorings, over a fin Fulmar.

 

[Concerto]

The Fulmar looks very much like what I have in mind - wheel steering is a real bonus [edit: correction a wheel just happened to be fitted on the first one I looked at] and I like the lines of the hull, very similar shape to the Pegasus in fact with narrow transom and sharp bow. That said, how does a long keel compare to a fin as far as performance is concerned (yes, I know slow speed manouverability suffers.)

A long keel is more directionally stable with the added problem of poorer turning circle and usually terrible under engine in reverse. I used to sail on a Northerny 34 (like a Twister but bigger with a counter transom) and found in heavier airs this boat had a marked tendancy to roll down wind, where as the fin and rudder boats were bolt upright.

The Fulmar with wheel steering is I believe the only one as it was fitted later. The transom is about 5 ft wide, so not too narrow, but the hull shape is considered by Ed Dubois, the designer, as his nicest hull shape he ever designed. Recently I found out that the original rudder he designed was not right, so Westerly built 4 different designs and tested all of them. What is fitted now was the best for handling. I find her easy to sail single handed, frequently I do not bother with the auto pilot whilst tacking. For handling under engine she goes exactly where you want and can turn in almost her own length. My preference for a fin is due to better performance and I have also changed the prop from a fixed 2 bladed to a folding one, sails even faster now. Compared to modern 32 footers, she is heavier due to stronger construction, which also means she sits in the water rather than on the water.

 

[Spyro]

50k is a tight budget? I need to rethink my finances

 

[doug748]

Take care with overtaking craft, you often see a tell tale wisp of smoke from the exhaust if you look closely

Like you I also like a boat that goes well to windward as, sadly, upwind is where we most often want to be. The older heavyweight brigade do excel and do it with some comfort but if you really want to fly you need to look at something more contemporary with, often, a racing pedigree.

In robust conditions in an upwind club race, designs like the Westerly Storm, Jeanneau Sunfast 32, J109 (more specialist, I know) and Elan 333 will be in the front rank. Next, a good way behind, will be the old IOR warriors followed by the solid fin keelers, modern family cruisers in the 30ft+range, and lighter, smaller craft.

Those boats out in front will be more lively and demanding to sail however. So in the end, it is a matter of what you want and how much you want it.

 

[mrming]

Modern lightweight boats such as the smaller Firsts seem to skim over ther water very efficiently

Our little First 235 has a 6.1m waterline and in 10 knots of breeze will do a shade over 5 knots upwind. Hull speed is about 6.3 knots and we get to that pretty easily on a beam reach with the asymmetric up. Silly speeds can be achieved momentarily when surfing downwind in bigger breeze / waves. The boat was designed in 1984.

 

[Avocet]

Perhaps not completely relevant to this thread, but Avocet (thin, pointy, long-keeler) always pointed beautifully and made very little leeway. Later, when we changed from a hank-on to a roller-reefing jib, I was really quite surprised at just how much pointing ability we lost!

 

[Bru]

Take care with overtaking craft, you often see a tell tale wisp of smoke from the exhaust if you look closely.

I've noticed that a lot this year

Lost count of the number of times I've thought, or said out loud, "how the hell is he ..." only to later spot the tell tale smoke or water from the exhaust!

 

[robertj]

You cannot expect to compete with larger craft. Their longer waterline their ability to carry a larger rig will put you at a disadvantage immediately.
If craft your own length are passing then you need to investigate why further.
Cruising means Weight the arch enemy in my opinion to smaller boats. If you are laden with all the cruise gear for lengthy stays away then this will slow you. Another is top hamper, spray hoods, bikinis, arches, wind generators, solar panels, radar etc ect are a good air brake.
The Bavaria in those winds would be heavily reefed which would hamper upwind ability which is prevelent on all heavily reefed boats, not just the Bavaria.
Upgrading is a mine field as each and every owner thinks their boat is, if not the best, very near the best for size etc.
I personally have a good passage maker but now feel that most of the time ones in port, possibly a good wide stern port boat a better choice.
Happy hunting.
Just start a 'best next boat to buy' thread and see what happens.

 

[winsbury]

.
Just start a 'best next boat to buy' thread and see what happens.

Ha ha...not your nelly...that's precisely why I asked the question differently

Yes I too have noticed a lot of motor sailing this season; cant fathom why though; perhaps berths are harder to find so 'early arrival advised' bears more weight this season; I certainly heard a lot of boats getting turned away from Cowes last week. Cones would appear to be in short supply at the chandlers though judging by the lack of them being shown.

There's a whole new thread's worth of meat to discuss roller furling versus hank on performance comparisions; though its no surprise generally that a roller is a compromise hence lower performance than a suite of traditional foresails. However for safety sake I prefer the roller rather than hanging on to a heaving water laden deck with acres of fabric swilling around my legs so it's a mute point for me.

The aforementioned sum is at the very uppermost limit of what might just be possible and for the sake of fertilising the discussion wanted to avoid ruling out too much choice. What is really very encouraging is the responses so far seem to indicate a £20-£30k budget would probably be more than enough to get 90%+ of what I'm looking for particularly as newer boats seem to be off the shopping list.

ps: cleaning the barnacles off the paddle wheel seems to have improved the readings rather a lot though not enough data yet to publish new figures.

 

[theoldsalt]

The type of boat is dependanton what it is to be used for.
If racing, performance is important and other considerations such as accomodation less so.
If cruising, sailing is for pleasure not necessarity max speed. Accomodation is important. If you have a timetable to achieve then a big engine is also important.
I have a cruiser and don't worry about getting the max while sailing. If I want speed I start the engine.

 

[Javelin]

There are so many conflicting factors which then ends up in a compromise which is then weighted one way or another.

My little ship flies up-wind, but with 6' very narrow lead keel I'd expect it too.
A ballast ratio of 53% also helps big time when it blows.
Keeping weight out of both ends of the boat helps, especially out of the bow.
Close sheeting, tight leach, straight forestay, centerlining the boom are prerequisites for upwind performance.
A narrow stern helps again compared with the trend for wide sterns to allow for aft accommodation which leads to bows down when the boat is heeled, accompanied with cavitating rudders etc.
(essentially when healed the wide stern boats buoyancy increases and the bow reduces)
However a narrow stern downwind is not as much fun!!

I wanted a solid fast boat that I can make comfortable rather than a comfortable boat that I can try and make go faster.

 

[LittleSister]

The boat is a bilge keel which I presume has some effect though when sufficiently heeled in a good F5-6 the leeward keel is near horizontal and skimming the waves so it seems to me the boat acts more like a fin keel at that point.

I know little about sail trim for speed (sadly), but I would have thought that if you are heeling such that one of your bilge keels is horizontal you may well go faster by reefing. You'll almost certainly lose no speed, steer a straighter course, and be a lot more comfortable by doing so.

Weight the arch enemy in my opinion to smaller boats. If you are laden with all the cruise gear for lengthy stays away then this will slow you. Another is top hamper, spray hoods, bikinis, . . .

Perhaps in future I should require any female crew to remove their bikinis, in the interest of boatspeed. ;-)

 

[MarcJ]

I've read the replies to your question with interest - we sail an old 20ft bilge keeler, with sails that have seen better days, we're also thinking of upgrading to a slightly bigger boat, but with a (very!) much smaller budget. I've been thinking that a long keel boat may sail up wind better than a bilge keeler but still have the benefits of drying out, with the addition of beach legs.
It seems to me when the wind gets up to around 20mph we are doing well if we can make any better than 90' to the prevailing wind direction - leeway seems to be the big problem. I'm sure new sails would improve the situation, and I expect we may be able to sail "better"!

 

[Lakesailor]

There are bilge keelers and bilge keelers. Some are very good. Some are not.