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Neeves

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We were sailing down the Great Sandy Strait, Queensland, Australia, and had anchored for the night. On the way to our chosen anchorage we passed a yacht apparently anchored in 20m of water, cabin lights gently glowing, anchor light on. Other than thinking it odd we carried on. Later, during dinner (lamp shanks and Shiraz), we had a large rap on the hull and on investigating found a lone sailor in an inflatable complaining we had anchored where he had left his yacht. Slowly we put 2 and 2 together, switched on radar, found yacht, transferred owner to yacht.

Next morning he explained his windlass had 'self operated' lifted his anchor - etc.

The following morning, we had moved down The Strait we learnt his yacht had caught fire and he was in hospital suffering smoke inhalation.

Unlike many banal threads - this one rekindled a memory.

Anchor raised itself - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Our circuit breakers, we have independent ones for each of the heavy duty components, are hidden behind the upholstery - and less than convenient to switch on/off. We could add master switches for each component, HF radio, windlass, halyard winch, each engine, invertor etc - The obvious place for a master switch would be at the windlass - where all the salt and water is.....??

What is common practice?

Jonathan
 
Last edited:
Jonathan

There will most certainly be more expert people on the forum to offer advice but when I wired up my Muir winch I am certain they told me I must have a circuit breaker for the winch close to the battery and a separate ON/OFF switch.

But here is something you might want to read.

Locating Windlass Breaker Switch
 
For a windlass, the master switch is normally incorporated with the circuit breaker, so you would want it close to the battery so that the majority of the wiring is protected. On Vivere the windlass circuit breaker is at the chart table, which is about 2m (dedicated) cable run from the domestic battery bank busbar, and the windlass circuit is only made live immediately before use and it is turned off after use. In addition the domestic busbar has its own master switch which turns off every thing, less the bilge pumps.
 
One boat I've been on, the windlass by default only works when the engine is running.
AIUI, there is a 'get around'.
I don't have a windlass, but IMHO there should be serious consideration to unintended operation, as their capacity for injuring people is not trivial.
 
Our windlass is under the deck and is only accessible if you open a large, and quite heavy, locker hatch. The windlass operate either using 1 of 2 foot switches on the foredeck or a rocker switch at the helm. The foot switches have covers. The accessible chain is retained in an aluminium trough. I'm not so concerned about accidental operation - the anchor is always secured - unless we are actually anchoring, idle fingers cannot become trapped, chain cannot be retrieved nor deployed (anchor is fixed) - and clutch would slip

Our circuit breakers are in a bank inches, or in modern parlance, centimetres, from the battery bank.

But - when we are on long passages, or the cat is on its mooring, there is no need to have power at the windlass.

On the mooring we turn everything off, except blige pumps - but that's not much use at sea :(

I would not want the windlass wired into the engine circuit - I can image the need to operate the windlass without the need to operate the engine(s). We have 'sailed' to anchor and retrieved and sailed from an anchorage - without the engine - though we usually motor into and out of anchorages and would operate the windlass with one engine running.

So how best, and where, to isolate.

My thought is to have one of those large battery isolation switches, one cable in, one out, that have a removable 'switch' at the chart table (the electrics are all adjacent to and parallel to the table) and keep the removable switch in the table drawer (we have similar switches to isolate the engines). This master switch for the windlass would need to be after the circuit breaker. The cable run would increase by about 500mm.

Coopec, thanks for the link - educational

Jonathan
 
lw395 said:
One boat I've been on, the windlass by default only works when the engine is running.
AIUI, there is a 'get around'.
I don't have a windlass, but IMHO there should be serious consideration to unintended operation, as their capacity for injuring people is not trivial.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to find the thread (may have been on another forum) where the point you raise was dicussed.

I have a Muir winch and Muir say in their installation Manual the circuit breaker should NOT be used as an isolator switch. . An additional HD switch came with the winch and the experts on the forum said I should use that stop any unintended operation such as someone accidentally stepping on the deck switch.
 
apologies if I'm stating the obvious but it seems many people are not aware of all the bits and how they work and terminology may be a bit confusing...
A typical installation will have 2 points of isolation/breakers:
  1. one dealing with the 60-80-whatever Amps on the thick cables going up front to the windlass motor and would/should be by the batteries
  2. one dealing with the signal voltage that toggles the contacts on the relay box by the windlass operating the up or down. This is the one that "powers" the footswitches, the remotes and the toggles on dash.
From what I understand, the culprit would be on the signal voltage due to broken cables/corrosion/faulty foot/dash switches, etc

1. would normally be in the e/r or somewhere not v.accessible (the bigger the boat the more inaccessible it will be it seems)
2. would be on the el.panel - easily accessible

what policy you follow is up to you, I tend to isolate the signal voltage and leave the big 80A or whatever permanently on. That's what I do when boat is in it's mooring throughout winter, or when moored in a port with easy access to the boat (through surrounding boats or dock)
However, once on board and anchor overnight it has never crossed my mind to isolate the windlass. Maybe because my head is 2m from the windlass and I'll definitely hear it...
Also I regularly inspect all bits living in the elements and open up and clean the relay switch by the windlass as the contacts get arced and tired after some years, nothing a 800grit sandpaper wont clean and smooth though.

my 2eurocent

V.
 
The main battery cables for the windlass should be fitted with thermal breakers to protect the cables, these should obviously be fitted at the battery end of the cables. Some installations have a battery forward, connected to either the engine or the domestic batteries, these cables should have breakers ate each end, close to the batteries. All of this is to protect the cables and to protect the windlass motor from overload, so these should be rated for the windlass. Some thermal breakers can be used as switches too. Same applies to a powered winch.

The windlass also has a low current circuit to activate the contactors (relays). This is simply a 12v circuit that supplies a positive feed to whatever switches operate the windlass. It's common for this circuit to be switched (it also needs to be fused at source), switching this circuit off would have prevented the windlass incident in the thread that Jonathan linked to, such a switch would also have prevented the accidental operation of the halyard winch in the same thread.

Edit, typed while Vas was posting his excellent reply.
 
I have a fuse just at the batteries, (aft cabin) then a cable run to a key-switch not far from windlass and its the main junction box at the relays where there are more fuses, the only switch is a roving wired remote which reaches the helm (via the foredeck hatch) so I can walk to and from the helm/bow and control the windlass along the way.. very handy ( i am going to add a wireless remote this year, just to make things a little easier....

unless I actually want to use the windless, the key switch is left in the off position, as soon as I anchor I put a chain hook on the short chain attached to the bow cleats, if I am leaving the boat I put a snubber attached to a few strong points and also a " just in case line"

Isn't the real message from this thread to take the chain off the windlass when not attended.... other posts refer to windlasses spilling the entire length of chain into the drink and the point attaching the bitter end of the chain not being strong enough to hold the boat.

at least if it is free to run, without chain attached, it will probably just flatten the batteries....
 
I note that with the updated Forum presentation threads do not last very long before they fall into, almost, oblivion. The forum team are trying to ensure that only truly controversial threads have a life.

Thanks for all the replies. I think we will instal a master switch covering both positive and negative power cables and instal it at the chart table. Now whether we need it or not seems debatable - I perceive conflicting advise. We have a dedicated relay for the windlass power cables, the foot switches are fused and the helm switch can be isolated (all the helm station instruments/switches can be switched off/isolated).

I might be overthinking this - but as mentioned - the windlass is one of the most powerful items of equipment on a yacht and it takes no skill (and certainly no intelligence) to press a foot switch (just to see what it does :( )

Jonathan
 
Puting a breaker behind upholstery seems non-compliant. That sort of gear generally has minimum clearance requirements.

I put mine on a bulkhead by the companionway but inside, out of the weather. But in fact, I was lazy and generally left it on while on cruise. On the other hand, we always used a chain lock, and on one occasion crew tried to lift anchor with the lock on. The breaker popped within a second, that's all (the chain lock is far stronger than the windless).

If properly wired it should fail safe, like any other home or industrial circuit.
 
thinwater said:
Puting a breaker behind upholstery seems non-compliant. That sort of gear generally has minimum clearance requirements.

I put mine on a bulkhead by the companionway but inside, out of the weather. But in fact, I was lazy and generally left it on while on cruise. On the other hand, we always used a chain lock, and on one occasion crew tried to lift anchor with the lock on. The breaker popped within a second, that's all (the chain lock is far stronger than the windless).

If properly wired it should fail safe, like any other home or industrial circuit. This should highlight the importance of strict adherence to code and good inspection practice. People do stuff on boats that would never happen in a home... although some scary stuff happens there too. Strangely, folks are more likely to get an electrician at home.

Electrical fires are one of the leading cause of loss and are avoidable.
Click to expand...
 
I have a Blue Sea 285 Series Circuit Breaker mounted in the cockpit locker, quite near the battery, but accessible from the cockpit locker lid. It is weather proof and has a switching functionality in addition to its breaker function. My windlass has the operating switches, up and inching, on the windlass body. I tend to switch the breaker into the off position when not using the windlass out of habit. It is possible, although improbable, that the windlass could start operating if water got through the seals, into the switches, and bridged the small contacts in the switches for the signal voltages. My windlass sits on the foredeck, in the open, fully exposed, sealed to the deck, with cable penetrations below the windlass base.
 
Neeves said:
I might be overthinking this - but as mentioned - the windlass is one of the most powerful items of equipment on a yacht and it takes no skill (and certainly no intelligence) to press a foot switch (just to see what it does :( )

Jonathan
Click to expand...

No you are not over thinking.

I had my bow thruster jam one once due to a faulty foot switch (the same as used for windlass). It was quite "exciting" until we turned the power off. As it was the control button we only needed to turn off the control circuits but still as we did not have a main isolator on the bow thruster if the main contactor had welded on we would have had to turn off the main battery switch.

BTW my bow thruster is rated at 600 Amps at 12VDC. My windlass is only 100 Amps at 12VDC.

My supply cables to my bow thruster are not cables but aluminium busbars 38 x 24mm, with 600Amp fuse on the batteries.
 
Thin, the space behind our upholstery is about 300mm deep and the full height of the upholstery and is ventilated. Its less than convenient as we have need to remove the whole back of the sofa to access the circuit breakers - not difficult - but its a big thing that gets in the way. However once it is opened up we have all the wiring fully exposed, neatly laid out and labelled. The batteries and invertor all sit on the cabin sole underneath.

Roger - you have a real boat :), unlike the plastic fantastics that most of us have :(. Though I'm surprised how small your windlass appears to be. John Morris (I think) was commenting that a windlass should have sufficient grunt to lift all the chain, if accidentally deployed in deep water. (clutch slips). I'm not sure how many windlass could actually complete that task - but you can replace the windlass, with a lot of effort and use a halyard winch. I suspect you have some decent chain (like NormanS) not the wimpy stuff we prefer :). I can lift all of our chain, only 75m, with anchor, by hand (though would prefer not to do so!).

But maybe I misjudge you and you have also seen the light and also use 6mm high tensile chain and have an aluminium primary anchor.

Jonathan
 
Yes my windlass may be a little small but it's what I had laying around at the time.

Same with my chain it 10 mm of unknown spec, but made up from chain hoist chain which gets discarded after 5 years use.

I have 70 meters on my primary anchor and 10 meters on my secondary with 100 metres of 3/4 octoplait on a reel to attach to either chain as need be.

I connected several lengths together with welded links then had it galvanized.

My anchors I made myself except the bruce which I picked up for less than the scrap value of the anchor.
 
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