Post-Disaster Survey: What do I do? Marigot Rose - Beneteau Cyclades 43 - Key West

[MarigotRose]

#1
Today, 09:30
MarigotRose
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Key West
Posts: 2
Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey
Pre-amble : I'm exhausted from finding boats that look to be a good buy, closely inspecting them myself, then going for $1500+ worth of Sea Trial and Survey to find all the problems that make a boat unpurchaseable

Straight out of the gates, I looked into buying a boat that was listed as a "Beneteau 43"
I thought it strange that the broker would leave off Cyclades - as you could misconstrue the boat to be a better model of Oceanis
Perhaps this is deliberate misrepresentation to try and gas the price up to an unfamiliar buyer?

The boat is all the way down in Key West FL - so even getting to have a look over her took around 15 hours of driving with an overnight stay (from Orlando, FL)

She looked kind of clean and tidy for a 2006 - true to the "lightly sailed 4 months and stored 8 months" sales fluff in the listing.

At Sea Trial and Survey - all of the junk of the sales listing fell away very rapidly.
Leaking oil in to a cleaned up engine bay that looked like it had never seen a drop
Damaged rudder that was bent enough at the shaft that the blade can actually stick and chafe on the hull while steering. Full steering range is in fact not possible due to obstruction.
Evidence of collisions and groundings - can an owner really smash into rocks, ground the keel, bend a rudder from impact and then list the boat as "clean, ready to go and lightly used"?

Where does the point of illegal misrepresentation enter the equation?
Should sellers be upfront about an engine that leaks Oil?

With all the damage found to this boat, the surveyor valued it at an amount way less than I offered - the seller wouldn't even extend the acceptance date while I waited on the report to be written up - felt like a dirty tactic to have me accept vessel blindly and be right over a barrel financially with my deposit committed
At present, the boat still sits listed as innocent and idyllic with a 50% price hike over current assessed value

This is my fourth survey now - and it feels like I'm a magnet for the very worst of the market
How many surveys have other cruisers had before they found their feasible/ideal purchase?

 

[bitbaltic]

I looked at three of the same model, crawled over each one for upwards of four hours each (they are 30ft long), and when I was satisfied that I had a good one I made an offer subject to survey which I knew would be smooth, and was. It was my first boat purchase but I had read a couple of books on how to look over a boat completely and did just that, filling half a notebook with observations for each boat.

Unless there is some rule in the US preventing you from looking a vessel over yourself before making an offer, I suggest the way to stop wasting money on surveying obviously duff boats is to be thorough in looking for faults before offer.

 

[LadyInBed]

What bitbaltic says :encouragement:

 

[Otter]

If I'd gone to survey without inspecting the boats first I'd have :

A. Spent all my money on surveys
B. Missed the fun of running away from some basket cases

Why would you book a survey based on an internet description???

 

[Pavalijo]

Why would you book a survey based on an internet description???

I think if you read again you will find that OP did drive 15 hours to view before arranging a survey. He is just not as practically minded as some of us.

I would have thought that the rudder problem should have been disclosed, and it seems that the oil leak was being deliberately hidden.

Here in the U.K. We have laws against misdescription when offering goods for sale, and we have a cheap and simple "small claims" procedure. In your shoes I would sue for the cost of the survey, fuel and overnight stay (not sure whether you can claim for wasted time). Not sure of obligations and remedies on your side of the pond though.

That aside, I think it is worth buying the book and looking more carefully next time. We looked at 2 yachts when buying. The first was a wreck and I told the broker that if he halved the price I was not sure I would be tempted. The second we bought, but on each occasion we were left alone on the boat for hours so that we could poke around every nook and cranny and came out with a good impression, even though the surveyor found a couple of things we should have spotted!

For 2 years before purchase I read every new listing on Yachtworld.co.uk that met my criteria and that gave me a good idea of what was out there and how to interpret the listings - which helped to narrow my search down considerably.

Better luck next time

 

[{151760}]

I think part of the OPs problem is that he's looking at boats so far from where he lives. Perhaps he has no choice. When we were looking, like pavalijo, I scoured the listings for ages, then made lists of boats to look at in one area. When we travelled there we had half-a-dozen to view. It was easy to dismiss the turkeys. We didn't bring in a surveyor until we were pretty sure our chosen boat was good (which it was).
Having said all that, we didn't come across any such blatant misrepresentations. I think he's been very unlucky.

 

[LittleSister]

Here in the U.K. We have laws against misdescription when offering goods for sale, and we have a cheap and simple "small claims" procedure. In your shoes I would sue for the cost of the survey, fuel and overnight stay (not sure whether you can claim for wasted time).

My understanding was that these laws (in the UK) apply only to people selling in the course of a business. So if you buy a boat from a dealer's stock, these apply, if you buy from an individual (whether or not through a broker) they don't - you're on your own, so buyer beware.

 

[Cathy*]

When looking for our second boat 3 years ago we knew what model we wanted and drove all over the country looking at all those for sale. One broker phoned us to ask could he postpone our viewing until the following day which we agreed to and stayed with a friend overnight. The following day he asked again to postpone and we obviously said no so he arranged for one of the marina staff to show us the boat. It was top end price of all those we looked at and advertised as low hours, well maintained and lightly used. Long story short it was a shed and we think the broker was too embarrassed to show us. 3 years later it is still on the market for the same price and with the same description. We decided maybe the guy didn't really want to sell but has it on the market to keep his wife happy.

We did our own survey on the boat we eventually bought. It was a stock boat and the broker was happy for us to spend many hours over 2 days checking every nook and cranny. We've just changed again and spent about 5 hours looking over our final choice before bringing in a surveyor. To be honest I'm not convinced now that we needed him because he missed stuff that we found and didn't really add anything.

I guess we're lucky living in the middle of the UK that we can get to any part of the coast within about 4 hours and we enjoyed the search.

 

[Tranona]

We did our own survey on the boat we eventually bought. It was a stock boat and the broker was happy for us to spend many hours over 2 days checking every nook and cranny.

Brokers by definition do not have "stock" boats. They only act as agents on behalf of owners. However a broker can also be a dealer (and many are) in which case they are selling on their own account as they own the boat.

Sorry to be pedantic (again!) but the legal nature of the transaction is entirely different so it is important that you understand the differences.

Your first experience with the shed is one of the dilemmas brokers face when owners are reluctant to seriously prepare boats for sale as at the end of the day the only power they have over their client is to refuse to represent him.

 

[prv]

My understanding was that these laws (in the UK) apply only to people selling in the course of a business.

There are certainly more requirements on the seller when it's a business, but my understanding is that even private sellers must not knowingly make any false statements about goods for sale. It's permissible to know about problems and keep quiet in the hope that the buyer won't notice, and you are not expected to be an expert and are allowed to be genuinely mistaken, but if you do offer information and you know it's incorrect, I believe you would be liable for the buyer's resulting losses.

Applying this idea to the incidental costs of a sale that didn't go through does seem a bit unusual, though.

Pete

 

[Robin]

#1
Today, 09:30
MarigotRose
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Key West
Posts: 2
Marigot Rose - Beneteau 43 - Disaster Survey
Pre-amble : I'm exhausted from finding boats that look to be a good buy, closely inspecting them myself, then going for $1500+ worth of Sea Trial and Survey to find all the problems that make a boat unpurchaseable

Straight out of the gates, I looked into buying a boat that was listed as a "Beneteau 43"
I thought it strange that the broker would leave off Cyclades - as you could misconstrue the boat to be a better model of Oceanis
Perhaps this is deliberate misrepresentation to try and gas the price up to an unfamiliar buyer?

The boat is all the way down in Key West FL - so even getting to have a look over her took around 15 hours of driving with an overnight stay (from Orlando, FL)

She looked kind of clean and tidy for a 2006 - true to the "lightly sailed 4 months and stored 8 months" sales fluff in the listing.

At Sea Trial and Survey - all of the junk of the sales listing fell away very rapidly.
Leaking oil in to a cleaned up engine bay that looked like it had never seen a drop
Damaged rudder that was bent enough at the shaft that the blade can actually stick and chafe on the hull while steering. Full steering range is in fact not possible due to obstruction.
Evidence of collisions and groundings - can an owner really smash into rocks, ground the keel, bend a rudder from impact and then list the boat as "clean, ready to go and lightly used"?

Where does the point of illegal misrepresentation enter the equation?
Should sellers be upfront about an engine that leaks Oil?

With all the damage found to this boat, the surveyor valued it at an amount way less than I offered - the seller wouldn't even extend the acceptance date while I waited on the report to be written up - felt like a dirty tactic to have me accept vessel blindly and be right over a barrel financially with my deposit committed
At present, the boat still sits listed as innocent and idyllic with a 50% price hike over current assessed value

This is my fourth survey now - and it feels like I'm a magnet for the very worst of the market
How many surveys have other cruisers had before they found their feasible/ideal purchase?

We have bought ( and sold ) two boats in the USA, also in Florida. Our first purchase we put down a deposit beforehand from the UK, sight unseen, subject to viewing, survey and sea trial, We had huge numbers of photographs on line that could be blown up and studied and studied. I had multiple phone conversations with the broker pointing out we were going to be flying 4,000 miles to view and were cash buyers ready to go, just don't muck us about. That broker was a good one luckily. I did a 4 hour survey myself in the water before the proper surveyor did his bit, I could have pulled the plug at any time but had no need. The owners took us on a short sea trial too. Next day we had the full survey, including engines and another sea trial (it was a 47 ft twin engine 'fast trawler' motor yacht) the boat was lifted out for the dry part of the survey and in fact we had her left ashore stored safely for 11 months before we could return and move on board. We had originally intended doing a rapid delivery out of Florida to avoid their sales tax of 6.5% with no upper cap, going to Va where the rste was the same but capped at max $2000..In the event hurricane Irene had us revise our initial plans, pay the Florida sales tax and since we had done so, to stay there as our home base to cruise the islands from. Our live aboard plans were modified a year later when I had a stroke. We sold that trawler because it was a beast to handle berthing in windy conditions and at 25 tons could not be bullied. we bought a small condo to live in and a 36 ft Beneteau Oceanis 36CC to cruise and play on. Not surprisingly we had the same broker sell the trawler and act as a 'buyer's representative to find the Benny. having a buyer's broker save us many fruitless trips and associated stress. We sold the oceanis last October, again not surprisingly using the same broker.

I can certainly recommend that guy, Gary Monell and Whiteaker Yachts, based in Bradenton Fl, but covering the whole SE corner of USA, power and sail.Gary was once sales manager for a Beneteau dealership and has an excellent knowledge of the make, he is a qualified Captain up to 200 tons for what that is worth and is a thoroughly nice guy to boot as is his buddy Preston Wright an other experienced rag and stick man.

We are in Daytona Beach Fl, If you need more info PM me for my phone number.

 

[howard easton]

There are certainly more requirements on the seller when it's a business, but my understanding is that even private sellers must not knowingly make any false statements about goods for sale. It's permissible to know about problems and keep quiet in the hope that the buyer won't notice, and you are not expected to be an expert and are allowed to be genuinely mistaken, but if you do offer information and you know it's incorrect, I believe you would be liable for the buyer's resulting losses.

Applying this idea to the incidental costs of a sale that didn't go through does seem a bit unusual, though.

Pete

Absolutely correct. Difficulty you have is proving that the seller did know.

You need to be realistic about second hand boats. You arent buying new and should expect some faults and some wear and tear. So you have an engine oil leak, get it repaired - it isnt the end of the world. The rudder is a bit more serious but again can be sorted at a cost.

 

[Skylark]

You need to be realistic about second hand boats. You arent buying new and should expect some faults and some wear and tear. So you have an engine oil leak, get it repaired - it isnt the end of the world. The rudder is a bit more serious but again can be sorted at a cost.

I have a bit more sympathy for the OP. If I've understood his post correctly, his surveyor values the boat significantly less than its prior-to agreed price. 50% was mentioned. Although we don't know the details, it seems that the oil leak, rudder and keel grounding are collectively a bit more than "expect some faults". I agree that these things are all fixable but I also believe that the owner should acknowledge the issues found and negotiate a new price accordingly.

 

[Jungle Jim]

I looked at three of the same model, crawled over each one for upwards of four hours each (they are 30ft long), and when I was satisfied that I had a good one I made an offer subject to survey which I knew would be smooth, and was. It was my first boat purchase but I had read a couple of books on how to look over a boat completely and did just that, filling half a notebook with observations for each boat.

Unless there is some rule in the US preventing you from looking a vessel over yourself before making an offer, I suggest the way to stop wasting money on surveying obviously duff boats is to be thorough in looking for faults before offer.

Could you give me a pointer to the books?

 

[bitbaltic]

Could you give me a pointer to the books?

These two were really helpful (and available for a penny secondhand I see!)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sail-Budget-Sailmate-Alistair-Buchan/dp/0713688890

https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Choose-Right-Yacht-Sailmate/dp/0713675810

 

[Jungle Jim]

Thanks Bitbaltic, penny spent :encouragement:

 

[[70521]]

We did our own survey on the boat we eventually bought. It was a stock boat and the broker was happy for us to spend many hours over 2 days checking every nook and cranny. We've just changed again and spent about 5 hours looking over our final choice before bringing in a surveyor. To be honest I'm not convinced now that we needed him because he missed stuff that we found and didn't really add anything.

I think that while many experienced boat buyers may not need a survey your insurance company will. I also see it as letting somebody look over the boat who has no emotional involvement in the purchase.

 

[MarigotRose]

Thank you all for your responses.
I gave the boat as good of a look over as I could, I was in fact too polite in entertaining so much conversation from the broker while I was trying to do so. In hindsight, that distraction meant I missed things that I'd previously dug deeper on other boats I inspected.
For future reference to anybody interested
In the interests of trying to recoup some of my losses, I can send copies of oil and transmission fluid tests. A copy of the full survey is also available
Contact me through this, one boat focussed, website

Marigot Rose - Beneteau Cyclades 43 - Key West, Florida - Marigot Rose Beneteau 43

Even after the broker called up her appointed Captain, and dug for information from him loitering around the surveying stages, with all that they got to know for free, the boat is still grossly misrepresented on YachtWorld

Gently sailed? Well maintained? Out on the hard? When this thing comes out the water next, it'll be evident just how many bashes it's had
Nothing gentle about any of it!
Caribbean survey recommended bottom paint in 2014/15....this thing hasn't seen a brush since before then