Post Brexit Cruising

[Tranona]

Thanks Mac for your very informative response.

A combination of a T2l form 'and, or' the last few owners bill of sale should do the job well enough.

No. You won't get a T2l without the evidence - and it is NOT proof of VAT paid, but a commercial bit of paper for goods in transit - even though some states treat it differently.

As macd says a boat that age that was in the EU in 1992 is "deemed VAT paid. You just need evidence of its build date and where it was in 1992. The last Bill of Sale is probably irrelevant, assuming it shows the sale took place in the EU.. Nobody is going to query it anyway unless there is something dodgy otherwise about the boat.

 

[rustybarge]

No. You won't get a T2l without the evidence - and it is NOT proof of VAT paid, but a commercial bit of paper for goods in transit - even though some states treat it differently.

As macd says a boat that age that was in the EU in 1992 is "deemed VAT paid. You just need evidence of its build date and where it was in 1992. The last Bill of Sale is probably irrelevant, assuming it shows the sale took place in the EU.. Nobody is going to query it anyway unless there is something dodgy otherwise about the boat.

Aha, thanks for clarifying.

I suppose it's a long shot expecting someone to have old mooring receipts from 1992.lol. The boat I'm interested in was built in 1983 but the builder has long since gone into receivership.

I'm hoping that the owners association will be able to confirm the build date from the hull vin number which would probably be sufficient for most custom's inspectors.


Anyhow I'm waiting for the relevant paper work before I fly down to see the boat.

 

[nortada]

It's T2L. Further info here:
http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/boating-abroad/Pages/t2l.aspx

Supporting evidence of VAT status is required. The hull number will be meaningless.

A pre-'85 boat may be officially "deemed VAT paid". To support this, you will need evidence of when it was built, and something such as a marina receipt to confirm that it was physically in the EU on 31st December 1992.

Want a T2L?

Go to https://assets.publishing.service.g...oads/attachment_data/file/374245/c88_1-8_.pdf, pull down, complete a C88/T2L and send the form to HMRC Salford.

Despite what others may say, no need to send any ship’s documents and you will receive a stamped up form by return of post. HMRC are well aware of the T2L problem for privately owned pleasure vessels and very helpful in resolving it.

If you want more detail go to https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/lag...ide-memoir-british-flagged-vessels-t1885.html. This aide-memoir will tell you exactly how to complete Page 4 of the C88/T2L. You only need to pull down and send off page 4 of this 8 paged document.

Although we have full VAT documentation for our boat, as we spend time in Portugal, to be completely safe, we got a T2L by the above procedure.

One minor issue, I believe HMRC will only return the completed form to a UK address.

Hope this helps.

If you require more info either browse our Tapatalk forum or PM me.

 

[rustybarge]

Want a T2L?

Go to https://assets.publishing.service.g...oads/attachment_data/file/374245/c88_1-8_.pdf.

Fill in the form and post to HMRC Salford.

Despite what others may say, no need to send any ship’s documents and you will receive a stamped up form by return of post. HMRC are well aware of the T2L problem for privately owned pleasure vessels and very helpful in resolving it.

If you want more detail go to https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/lag...ide-memoir-british-flagged-vessels-t1885.html. This aide-memoir will tell you exactly how to complete Page 4 of the C88/T2L. You only need to pull down and send off page 4 of this 8 paged document.

Although we have full VAT documentation for our boat, as we spend time in Portugal, to be completely safe, we got a T2L by the above procedure.

One minor issue, I believe HMRC will only return the completed form to a UK address.

Hope this helps.

If you require more info either browse our Tapatalk forum or PM me.

 

[rustybarge]

Thanks very much. Wow ! Turns out to be an easy task.

Perhaps you know the boat I'm interested in, it's the old Colvic 38' trawler with the twin Cummins 6b engines moored at Lagos.

Is it a reasonably good boat ? I'm well aware that's it's a completely unknown make of trawler, as colvic are only known for their sailing boats which makes it virtually unsaleable.

 

[nortada]

Thanks very much. Wow ! Turns out to be an easy task.

Perhaps you know the boat I'm interested in, it's the old Colvic 38' trawler with the twin Cummins 6b engines moored at Lagos.

Is it a reasonably good boat ? I'm well aware that's it's a completely unknown make of trawler, as colvic are only known for their sailing boats which makes it virtually unsaleable.

Sorry don’t know the boat - PM the name

 

[Tranona]

Aha, thanks for clarifying.

I suppose it's a long shot expecting someone to have old mooring receipts from 1992.lol. The boat I'm interested in was built in 1983 but the builder has long since gone into receivership.

I'm hoping that the owners association will be able to confirm the build date from the hull vin number which would probably be sufficient for most custom's inspectors.


Anyhow I'm waiting for the relevant paper work before I fly down to see the boat.

Leaving aside the fact that you will almost certainly never be asked for any evidence - it is all so long ago - it would really be helpful to have the complete history of the boat from new. If it has never been on a register that requires such evidence all you can do is make reasonable assumptions. Remember for most boats there is no independent record of its existence and the only records are those that go with the boat, and there is (at least in the UK) no legal requirement to keep them. This puts anybody querying the provenance of the boat in exactly the same position as you.

The key thing about VAT is knowing where the boat was built and where it was first sold. This will determine where the VAT was paid and the jurisdiction any VAT issues come under. There is an issue if there is evidence of the boat spending time outside the EU, particularly if it changed ownership outside, but in the absence of any documentary evidence this is unlikely to be a real issue.

 

[rustybarge]

Leaving aside the fact that you will almost certainly never be asked for any evidence - it is all so long ago - it would really be helpful to have the complete history of the boat from new. If it has never been on a register that requires such evidence all you can do is make reasonable assumptions. Remember for most boats there is no independent record of its existence and the only records are those that go with the boat, and there is (at least in the UK) no legal requirement to keep them. This puts anybody querying the provenance of the boat in exactly the same position as you.

The key thing about VAT is knowing where the boat was built and where it was first sold. This will determine where the VAT was paid and the jurisdiction any VAT issues come under. There is an issue if there is evidence of the boat spending time outside the EU, particularly if it changed ownership outside, but in the absence of any documentary evidence this is unlikely to be a real issue.

Makes perfect sense, especially under common law and the concept of what's reasonable.

Not sure if the Portuguese use the same legal system as us as they seem to accept the worthless T2l vat form.....

 

[Tranona]

Makes perfect sense, especially under common law and the concept of what's reasonable.

Not sure if the Portuguese use the same legal system as us as they seem to accept the worthless T2l vat form.....

No they don't. Roman law so it has to be written down - or they just make it up as it suits them! However, this is nothing to do with common law. EU rules follow the Roman law system by writing things down, but forget to check whether the rule they have written can actually be implemented - so they fudge and pass it down to the states to do the best they can.

On my bookshelf above where I am sitting there is a book titled "Cultures and Organization" by a lovely Dutchman called Geert Hofstede. If you read that you will understand why different states implement EU directives differently (both formally and informally) and in particular why the UK has had so much difficulty in dealing with the EU.

 

[guernseyman]

P.S. Channel Isles are already fully outside the EU. Isle of Man is outside the EU but inside the UK and thus EU customs zone (i.e. VAT area). So in the fiscal sense boats owned by IoM residents are treated in the same way as UK vessels. There's every reason to suppose that relationship with the UK will continue after Brexit.

The Isle of Man is outside the UK, but raises VAT in an agreement with the UK.

While the Channel Islands are outside the EU, under Protocol 3 to the UK Treaty of Accession to the EEC they are inside the EU Customs area so, while they do not raise VAT, neither that tax nor other duties are payable on goods exported to the EU.

 

[macd]

The Isle of Man is outside the UK, but raises VAT in an agreement with the UK.

Sorry, you're correct, of course, and so was I but my phrasing was ambiguous enough to be misconstrued. To be clearer: "Isle of Man is outside the EU but inside the UK [VAT area] and thus EU customs zone (i.e. VAT area)". I lived on The Island and was VAT-registered there for many years so am well aware of it's position.

 

[nortada]

T2L After Brexit

Want a T2L?

Go to https://assets.publishing.service.g...oads/attachment_data/file/374245/c88_1-8_.pdf, pull down, complete a C88/T2L and send the form to HMRC Salford.

Despite what others may say, no need to send any ship’s documents and you will receive a stamped up form by return of post. HMRC are well aware of the T2L problem for privately owned pleasure vessels and very helpful in resolving it.

If you want more detail go to https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/lag...ide-memoir-british-flagged-vessels-t1885.html. This aide-memoir will tell you exactly how to complete Page 4 of the C88/T2L. You only need to pull down and send off page 4 of this 8 paged document.

Although we have full VAT documentation for our boat, as we spend time in Portugal, to be completely safe, we got a T2L by the above procedure.

One minor issue, I believe HMRC will only return the completed form to a UK address.

Hope this helps.

If you require more info either browse our Tapatalk forum or PM me.

On reflection, before Brexit happens it could be a good idea for all UK registered vessels to get a T2L before the end of March 2019.

 

[maxi77]

Re: T2L After Brexit

On reflection, before Brexit happens it could be a good idea for all UK registered vessels to get a T2L before the end of March 2019.

Like all Brexit problems that depends. Post brexit UK vessels will be non EU vessels and subject to the normal rules for such vessels, unless our political masters agree some more advantageous scheme. Thus VAT status may or may not be important

 

[Tranona]

Re: T2L After Brexit

On reflection, before Brexit happens it could be a good idea for all UK registered vessels to get a T2L before the end of March 2019.

Why? The T2L is a commercial document for goods in transit across the EU. It is not intended for boats freely circulating, neither is it proof of VAT payment, despite what the Portuguese and the Croatian officials believe. Possession of one for a private boat is just a way of humouring them! Nowhere else in the EU apart from those two states requires it in these circumstances, for obvious reasons.

The exit deal will have its own rules, whatever they end up being and certainly will not involve a T2L.

BTW registration has nothing currently to do with VAT. The only thing that matters currently is where it was paid and it is likely that this will remain the case after exit. So my old boat which is registered in the UK and still owned by a UK resident (but kept in Spain) and VAT paid in Greece is likely to be treated differently from my current boat on which VAT was paid in the UK. It may well be that registration does feature in the rules post exit as part of defining a boat's "status" with regard to movement in the EU, but it does not currently.

 

[nortada]

Re: T2L After Brexit

Why? The T2L is a commercial document for goods in transit across the EU. It is not intended for boats freely circulating, neither is it proof of VAT payment, despite what the Portuguese and the Croatian officials believe. Possession of one for a private boat is just a way of humouring them! Nowhere else in the EU apart from those two states requires it in these circumstances, for obvious reasons.

The exit deal will have its own rules, whatever they end up being and certainly will not involve a T2L.

BTW registration has nothing currently to do with VAT. The only thing that matters currently is where it was paid and it is likely that this will remain the case after exit. So my old boat which is registered in the UK and still owned by a UK resident (but kept in Spain) and VAT paid in Greece is likely to be treated differently from my current boat on which VAT was paid in the UK. It may well be that registration does feature in the rules post exit as part of defining a boat's "status" with regard to movement in the EU, but it does not currently.

Understand that recently authorities in Andalusia have recently raised questions on T2L. Not surprising as Portugal and Spain jointly police the River Guadiana. Other EU states could catch on to this potential money spinner.

My comments are based on practical experience - if a local official demands to see your T2L it is nice to have one.

Much better than having a lien placed on your boat and 30 days to produce one.

HMRC Salford understand the problem and are fully on-side

As to the future of T2L after Brexit, even Tranona can’t answer that one

 

[Tranona]

Re: T2L After Brexit

As to the future of T2L after Brexit, even Tranona can’t answer that one

Can have a pretty good idea. If the UK leaves the customs union then it will cease to have any significance for the UK. As stated it does not currently have any formal significance in the context of circulate of private boats so will be unlikely to feature in any agreed arrangements for UK boats (however defined) rights to circulate freely in the remaining EU.

HMRC go along with the charade because it is essentially cost free and meaningless for them. anybody in business moving goods across borders in the EU can issue a T2L, but private people cannot. I had one for my old boat, issued by the transport contractor who took it by road from Spain to UK. That is an example of correct use.

You have to state clearly that your own experience is specific to Portugal and therefore not relevant to anybody who does not keep their boat in Portugal.

 

[nortada]

Re: T2L After Brexit

Can have a pretty good idea. If the UK leaves the customs union then it will cease to have any significance for the UK. As stated it does not currently have any formal significance in the context of circulate of private boats so will be unlikely to feature in any agreed arrangements for UK boats (however defined) rights to circulate freely in the remaining EU.

HMRC go along with the charade because it is essentially cost free and meaningless for them. anybody in business moving goods across borders in the EU can issue a T2L, but private people cannot. I had one for my old boat, issued by the transport contractor who took it by road from Spain to UK. That is an example of correct use.

You have to state clearly that your own experience is specific to Portugal and therefore not relevant to anybody who does not keep their boat in Portugal.

Pretty good ideas ain’t answers.

From the coal face, a T2L has proved a useful bit of paper and may continue to be so. Possibly this is why the RYA and CA have offered advice on how to obtain one. Pity their instructions are over complicated.

Irrespective of the rights or wrongs, local officials are usually more impressed with a bit of paper than the lack of it. Especially if it is franked by HMRC and in a language they do not fully understand. Rather than lose face they will often just back off.

How do you know my experiences are specific to Portugal

Out of interest Tranona, where are you now and when did you last operate in Portugal

To my knowledge, the T2L saga has been running for about the last 3 to 4 years. Before then VAT didn’t seem to be much of an issue to pleasure vessel on passage but was if they were hauled from one country to another.

By all means have the last word but other following this thread will make their own judgement.

 

[Tranona]

Re: T2L After Brexit

Pretty good ideas ain’t answers.

From the coal face, a T2L has proved a useful bit of paper and may continue to be so. Possibly this is why the RYA and CA have offered advice on how to obtain one. Pity their instructions are over complicated.

Irrespective of the rights or wrongs, local officials are usually more impressed with a bit of paper than the lack of it. Especially if it is franked by HMRC and in a language they do not fully understand. Rather than lose face they will often just back off.

How do you know my experiences are specific to Portugal

Out of interest Tranona, where are you now and when did you last operate in Portugal

To my knowledge, the T2L saga has been running for about the last 3 to 4 years. Before then VAT didn’t seem to be much of an issue to pleasure vessel on passage but was if they were hauled from one country to another.

By all means have the last word but other following this thread will make their own judgement.

It is not about having the last word. It is just about clarifying that the T2L saga is peculiar to Portugal and possibly Croatia. None of the other 26 or 27 EU states use it in the way that Portugal seems to simply because that is an incorrect use of the form.

Of course that is your experience because you are in Portugal, (and I have never suggested you are not right in going along with it) but it is wrong to suggest that it is an issue anywhere else, nor that there is any need for anybody else to get one for their boat unless they are keeping it in (or perhaps visiting) Portugal.

Of course I don't know what will happen after exit as we have not even seen proposals yet but it would be difficult to imagine that the use of an inappropriate form would play any part.

BTW as I explained a T2L is used for road transport of pleasure vessels. The one for my old boat dates from 2010, long before Portugal decided it was needed for vessels arriving under their own steam. No other state needs it in that situation.

On the subject of VAT, the reason why there is so little concern about it for visitors is that EU rules are quite clear that VAT matters are the responsibility of the state where VAT was paid, and not where the vessel is located with the proviso that there should be evidence from that state that VAT has been paid. It is the last bit that is problematic as proof can be difficult, particularly for boats where VAT was paid in the UK because of the lack of an independent and verifiable record of payment.

 

[nortada]

Re: T2L After Brexit

It is not about having the last word. It is just about clarifying that the T2L saga is peculiar to Portugal and possibly Croatia. None of the other 26 or 27 EU states use it in the way that Portugal seems to simply because that is an incorrect use of the form.

Of course that is your experience because you are in Portugal, (and I have never suggested you are not right in going along with it) but it is wrong to suggest that it is an issue anywhere else, nor that there is any need for anybody else to get one for their boat unless they are keeping it in (or perhaps visiting) Portugal.

Of course I don't know what will happen after exit as we have not even seen proposals yet but it would be difficult to imagine that the use of an inappropriate form would play any part.

BTW as I explained a T2L is used for road transport of pleasure vessels. The one for my old boat dates from 2010, long before Portugal decided it was needed for vessels arriving under their own steam. No other state needs it in that situation.

On the subject of VAT, the reason why there is so little concern about it for visitors is that EU rules are quite clear that VAT matters are the responsibility of the state where VAT was paid, and not where the vessel is located with the proviso that there should be evidence from that state that VAT has been paid. It is the last bit that is problematic as proof can be difficult, particularly for boats where VAT was paid in the UK because of the lack of an independent and verifiable record of payment.

Most boats travelling south stop off in Portuguese Waters.

Would remind you that my original post on this subject raised the question of the efficacy of getting a T2L, not the legalities of the form.

 

[capnsensible]

Re: T2L After Brexit

Interestingly, in the thirty or more countries Ive cleared yachts in and out of, Ive never been asked for proof of VAT payment. Even when importing to the Canary Islands. Or visiting Portugal!

Its not something that brings me out in a sweat.