Post Brexit Cruising

[Irish Rover]

No, but the strongest possible reason why it's prudent to carry evidence of VAT status when visiting EU countries. In some, as I daresay you're aware, registration is itself evidence of VAT status (since VAT evidence must accompany the application to register). But this is no EU requirement that this be the case.

That is the case now, and will be the day after Brexit/Brexit transition, yet you were careful to use the word "indefinitely". You may be correct in your estimation that VAT on UK boats won't be recognised in the EU at some future date. But that will require a definition of a "UK boat". For the present, flag state does not provide that definition. Whether it will be deemed so in the future is adding guess to guess.

I'm glad we're in agreement on some aspects at least. For what it's worth I think there will be a period of 3 to 5 years after the transition within which UK registered boats will have the same freedoms as currently and after that they will be subject to TI and subject to EU VAT [again] if they are re-imported into the EU. In that scenario I would expect UK registered boats which are eligible for registration in an EU country will be able to do so in that interim period and retain their EU VAT status but not LATER. All the same rules would apply to EU registered boats who want to establish UK VAT paid status and register in the EU. ONLY GUESSING, OF COURSE.

 

[macd]

Glad there's a little more harmony. But, again, I take issue with the emphasis on registry. Whilst the flag state of most boats also happens to be their owner's nationality and country of residence, it ain't always so. In the UK/EU, VAT liability hinges on the latter. (If I remember your early thread correctly, if that weren't the case, you'd be a whole heap worse off.)

 

[Irish Rover]

Glad there's a little more harmony. But, again, I take issue with the emphasis on registry. Whilst the flag state of most boats also happens to be their owner's nationality and country of residence, it ain't always so. In the UK/EU, VAT liability hinges on the latter. (If I remember your early thread correctly, if that weren't the case, you'd be a whole heap worse off.)

I don't believe I was guilty of causing any disharmony unless having a different point of view is considered disharmonious. You are correct in what you say about VAT liability in the EU and the UK is currently part of the EU. But soon enough it won't be part of the EU and new arrangements will apply. We have different opinions about what those new arrangements will be for UK boaters and their boats. I think we are all agreed there is no cause for anyone to panic or take precipitous measures now. Whatever transpires will, I expect, be well flagged and any possible contingency arrangements individuals can take to accommodate their own circumstances will still be available whenever the new arrangements are clearly known.

 

[macd]

You are correct in what you say about VAT liability in the EU and the UK is currently part of the EU. But soon enough it won't be part of the EU and new arrangements will apply. We have different opinions about what those new arrangements will be for UK boaters and their boats. I think we are all agreed there is no cause for anyone to panic or take precipitous measures now. Whatever transpires will, I expect, be well flagged and any possible contingency arrangements individuals can take to accommodate their own circumstances will still be available whenever the new arrangements are clearly known.

You seem constantly to miss my point. For the most part I have not been guessing future regulations, but clarifying current ones. I can envisage no scenario which will mean that any new arrangements will not be precisely as they are now, but almost certainly with special transitional (or longer) arrangements for UK vessels. I think it safe to discount the possibility of third country regulations changing wholesale, just because one (the UK) is added to a list of around 170. Fundamental to these regulations is the irrelevance of flag state to matters fiscal for recreational craft**. That's it.

To the "no cause for panic", a hearty "yes".

** Except in the apparent UK interpretation of eligibility for TI, mentioned earlier, which doesn't appear in any EU documents I've read. For most UK boaters visiting the EU27, TI will be be attractive and (with any luck) relatively painless, as it usually is for third country visitors at present. For anyone not familiar with it, there's a straightforward EU Q&A here: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custo...-asked-questions-about-rules-private-boats_en

 

[Irish Rover]

You seem constantly miss my point. For the most part I have not been guessing future regulations, but clarifying current ones. I can envisage no scenario which will mean that any new arrangements are not be precisely as they are now, but almost certainly with special transitional (or longer) arrangements for UK vessels. I think it safe to discount the possibility of third country regulations changing wholesale, just because one (the UK) is added to a list of around 170. Fundamental to these regulations is the irrelevance of flag state to matters fiscal for recreational craft**. That's it.

To the "no cause for panic", a hearty "yes".

** Except in the apparent UK interpretation of eligibility for TI, mentioned earlier, which doesn't appear in any EU documents I've read. For most UK boaters visiting the EU27, TI will be be attractive and (with any luck) relatively painless, as it usually is for third country visitors at present. For anyone not familiar with it, there's a straightforward EU Q&A here: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custo...-asked-questions-about-rules-private-boats_en

Well there you go then because you seem constantly to miss mine as well and indeed the point of the thread. The OP was asking opinions about post Brexit arrangements not current arrangements. He was asking if people should consider re-flagging and I was trying to address that. Apart from the answer to his final question the answers to all his other question of necessity require guesswork.

 

[macd]

Well there you go then because you seem constantly to miss mine as well and indeed the point of the thread. The OP was asking opinions about post Brexit arrangements not current arrangements. He was asking if people should consider re-flagging and I was trying to address that. Apart from the answer to his final question the answers to all his other question of necessity require guesswork.

Well, thank you. That is precisely what I have been addressing, time and again, rather than the guesswork. How that is missing the point of the thread will require some convoluted logic.

From post #6 (and repeated in other contexts later):
"But why would you bother [changing to an EU flag]? A Dutch flag may reduce the likelihood of one's papers being inspected, but cannot make a non-VAT paid boat VAT paid."

You didn't answer the question then (despite its being clearly addressed to you), and you haven't since.

 

[Irish Rover]

Well, thank you. That is precisely what I have been addressing, time and again, rather than the guesswork. How that is missing the point of the thread will require some convoluted logic.

From post #6 (and repeated in other contexts later):
"But why would you bother [changing to an EU flag]? A Dutch flag may reduce the likelihood of one's papers being inspected, but cannot make a non-VAT paid boat VAT paid."

You didn't answer the question then (despite its being clearly addressed to you), and you haven't since.

I hope you get some pleasure and satisfaction from your contrary and confrontational style of posting. You'll have to carry on without me because I've had enough of it. If you see that as a victory of sorts then I'm pleased for you. Enjoy it.

 

[Tranona]

You are of the opinion that UK registered boats will retain their EU VAT paid status after Brexit and I am of the opinion that they will not retain that status indefinitely. We're both guessing.

No, I am not of that opinion. All I am saying is that a simple " these boats (however defined) are now third country" in a blanket way just like the current third country definition is unlikely for all the reasons listed above. And suggest you stop talking in terms of registration in this context. As I seem to remember saying earlier you either seem not to understand or are just ignoring what is being written because it does not suit your personal position.

My personal opinion is that we are steadily moving towards a "soft" future relationship where not much will change even though we will leave the single market and customs union in its current form. You can see the compromises emerging already as reality overtakes the rhetoric.

 

[Irish Rover]

No, I am not of that opinion. All I am saying is that a simple " these boats (however defined) are now third country" in a blanket way just like the current third country definition is unlikely for all the reasons listed above. And suggest you stop talking in terms of registration in this context. As I seem to remember saying earlier you either seem not to understand or are just ignoring what is being written because it does not suit your personal position.

My personal opinion is that we are steadily moving towards a "soft" future relationship where not much will change even though we will leave the single market and customs union in its current form. You can see the compromises emerging already as reality overtakes the rhetoric.

I'm not sure what you mean by my "personal position". None of this will affect me personally. I believe re-registering under an EU flag will suit and benefit many UK owners if they are eligible to do so. I genuinely hope you are right about a soft exit but I personally wouldn't bet on it - the type of "soft" relationship your post suggests will surely be very unpalatable to Brexit supporters who seem to have envisaged something entirely different happening and equally unpalatable to Brexit opponents who will be asking how it makes since to effectively stay in the club but resign your seat on the controlling committee. Anyway I don't want to get involved in the Brexit debate so I'll butt out at that.

 

[rib]

That the end thank god

 

[westernman]

Many French owned boats which are kept outside France are registered in either the Netherlands or in Belgium.

The main reason for this is I suspect to avoid paying tax. A French resident who owns a boat is supposed to pay a yearly tax (matriculation tax for a French registered boat, "passeport" for a foreign registered boat - the tax amount is identical in both cases).

If the boat is kept in France it is difficult to avoid. However, if the boat is kept abroad (e.g. Spain or Italy), and was not previously registered in France and is registered somewhere else, then the tax authorities will probably not know and not have an easy way to find out. Also the "passeport" tax is probably on dodgy legal ground under EU rules if the boat is not kept in France and the tax authorities probably have bigger fish to catch.

Also the Dutch and Belgian flags have considerably less demanding requirements for obligatory safety equipment.

 

[Jeva]

Amen to all that, Tranona.

Jeva: the "six month rule" to which you refer (with a few specific exceptions from older treaties), might be better described as a three month rule: i.e. three months in any six. As Tranona writes, it applies entirely to people, not boats. People, by and large, don't wear flags. Currently, non-EU VAT-paid boats owned by non-EU residents (regardless of nationality) can remain in the EU for 18 months under "Temporary Importation" without being liable for VAT.

P.S. Channel Isles are already fully outside the EU. Isle of Man is outside the EU but inside the UK and thus EU customs zone (i.e. VAT area). So in the fiscal sense boats owned by IoM residents are treated in the same way as UK vessels. There's every reason to suppose that relationship with the UK will continue after Brexit.

Theres been a lot of talk here about the VAT position but surely the 3 month in 6 is a bigger problem for those of us who live aboard permanently or even for the the 6 months of summer or have I got the wrong end of this again?

 

[jordanbasset]

Theres been a lot of talk here about the VAT position but surely the 3 month in 6 is a bigger problem for those of us who live aboard permanently or even for the the 6 months of summer or have I got the wrong end of this again?

Agree, those going on holiday for a few weeks during the year will not be effected. Those who live pretty much full time in one country within the E.U. will probably be okay. But I suspect those who enjoy the liveaboard life style of a couple of months here and there in different countries within the E.U. living largely on the hook maybe a low priority for either our own or the E.U. negotiators to sort out.

 

[maxi77]

Theres been a lot of talk here about the VAT position but surely the 3 month in 6 is a bigger problem for those of us who live aboard permanently or even for the the 6 months of summer or have I got the wrong end of this again?

A lot is going to depend on just how the UK stands on EU citizens entering the UK. If we go as has been suggested for a 3 month visa system then you can be pretty sure the EU will adopt the same. We will all have to be counted in and then out of the EU with penalties for overstaying. We will then have to see just how often we can apply for a new 3 month visa. The ball is very much in the UKs hands on this one I fear as our politicians are dead set on 'being tough on nasty foreigners getting in to the UK'

 

[RAI]

A lot is going to depend on just how the UK stands on EU citizens entering the UK. If we go as has been suggested for a 3 month visa system then you can be pretty sure the EU will adopt the same. We will all have to be counted in and then out of the EU with penalties for overstaying. We will then have to see just how often we can apply for a new 3 month visa. The ball is very much in the UKs hands on this one I fear as our politicians are dead set on 'being tough on nasty foreigners getting in to the UK'

TM has a white paper on how the government want to treat EU immigrants after Brexit and the transition period. It is being withheld from publication until after the transition period and withdrawal agreement have been settled.
It is educational to see how the UK currently treats non-EU immigrants and then wonder which variation TM has in mind for EU visitors and immigrants. EU reciprocation is likely.
See: https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa
Try being a Pakistani looking for work in the UK.

 

[macd]

Theres been a lot of talk here about the VAT position but surely the 3 month in 6 is a bigger problem for those of us who live aboard permanently or even for the the 6 months of summer or have I got the wrong end of this again?

I don't think you have got it wrong at all, so far as liveaboards are concerned. Indeed, I wrote as much earlier. The worst case scenario we know, because well over 100 "third countries" are already subject to it: three months in six for the people on board, 18 months in 18months + 1 day for the boat itself (if not EU VAT-paid and owned by a third country resident). That 18 months is extendable - on application - by six months if put in bond, which might not be a major hassle during winter layup.

Of course "worst case" (for people) might not come to pass. Several third countries already enjoy more liberal access to the EU (or to individual countries within the EU, usually hangovers from old treaties). Crucially, as maxi77 writes, much will hinge on reciprocity. For boats, it remains to be seen what arrangements will be made, principally in relation to VAT. Assuming the transition period goes ahead, it's unlikely anything much will change before the end of 2020, or thereabouts.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I am with the wait and see what happen camp, not the lest worried about it for now, although If the worst come to the worst I do have a way out . as I understand it as long as you can prove the boat is VAT paid not matter what EU country flag there not going to be a problem ,
The problem if any will be with the skipper/crew and the time they can stay in Europe and for some full time liveaboard as our self its going to mean using North Africa Turkey or one of the few non EU country left to break up that this .

 

[Chris_Robb]

Well, thank you. That is precisely what I have been addressing, time and again, rather than the guesswork. How that is missing the point of the thread will require some convoluted logic.

From post #6 (and repeated in other contexts later):
"But why would you bother [changing to an EU flag]? A Dutch flag may reduce the likelihood of one's papers being inspected, but cannot make a non-VAT paid boat VAT paid."

You didn't answer the question then (despite its being clearly addressed to you), and you haven't since.

Mac - the one things that does not appear to have been mentioned is:

If a UK VAT Paid vessel remains in the EU - it would appear unlikely to loose its VAT paid status ever -( Evidence may well be needed to support Vat paid status).

BUT if the boat leaves the EU for 3 years it WILL loose it status.

Similarly if a the boat gets sold outside the EU it WILL loose its VAT paid status.

I would place a bet on at least getting a continuous VAT status on UK paid vat - remember that a portion of that VAT was paid to the EU coffers - How can the EU undo 25 years of TAX where that tax was validly paid according to the rules. But remove the boat from the EU and you will loose it after 3 years without doubt.

 

[macd]

Chris, in fairness and in logic, that may well be the case. But we hold our collective breath.

 

[Irish Rover]

Mac - the one things that does not appear to have been mentioned is:

If a UK VAT Paid vessel remains in the EU - it would appear unlikely to loose its VAT paid status ever -( Evidence may well be needed to support Vat paid status).

BUT if the boat leaves the EU for 3 years it WILL loose it status.

Similarly if a the boat gets sold outside the EU it WILL loose its VAT paid status.

I would place a bet on at least getting a continuous VAT status on UK paid vat - remember that a portion of that VAT was paid to the EU coffers - How can the EU undo 25 years of TAX where that tax was validly paid according to the rules. But remove the boat from the EU and you will loose it after 3 years without doubt.

Millions of people in the UK will have been born as EU citizens and and at least a portion of the tax they pay will have gone into EU coffers but they will lose their EU citizen status and have no residual credit or benefit for the tax they contributed to the EU and will still be contributing to the "buy-out" fee to the EU. Why would boats be treated any more generously?