Possibly/Probably disastrous steering problem :(

[Cardo]

Some of you may be aware our Southerly 105 was modified by the previous owner from a single transom hung rudder to twin transom hung rudders. Whilst doing this, he also changed the steering system from cable to hydraulic.
When we bought the boat, the surveyor had a look at the system and seemed happy with it as it was working. Unfortunately, having owned the boat for a year and a half we have discovered various problems with the modification, with differing levels of seriousness.
Our latest issue is pretty serious, I believe.

The hydraulic system drives a ram that sits on the stern under the (reasonably high) boarding platform. The ram is outside, and whilst protected from rain, etc. by the platform, it is not protected from sea water splashing up onto it. The ram is held in place by stainless wires and the pistons drive the rudders directly.
Recently, I've discovered we've been leaving a slightly oily residue in our wake. I thought this had something to do with unrelated engine problems, but it appears what's happened is one of the pistons has pitted (much like what happened on the forks on my bike!) and the seal has broken, causing hydraulic oil to seep out. This also explains why the reservoir level had dropped and required topping up.
The ram itself doesn't look to be in great condition. Although it was painted over with pretty thick paint, there are signs of rust pretty much all over it.

In the short term, I see my only option is to have plenty of hydraulic fluid available to top up the reservoir as the level drops. This is obviously only a short term solution as the leaking is only likely to get worse. I have cleaned the arm as best as I could to avoid further damage to the seal.

This is where the pain comes in:
What do I do to fix the problem?
1) Have someone refurbish the hydraulic ram. This may not be particularly easy due to the paint and rust over the unit. Further, how long is it likely to last?

2) The ram was custom made by a company in the UK. Should I contact them and ask them to knock up another for me? Whilst this would be a relatively "straight forward" replacement, I don't know what the cost of having a new one manufactured would be. And, what would stop this problem from recurring in the future?

3) Overhaul the steering system and bring the ram inside. There is space on the inside of the transom that would fit a hydraulic ram. This is where the original cable steering system sat. This would require a new ram (though probably off the shelf) and some kind of linkages to connect the ram to the rudders. I would need to find someone to manufacture a new pintle and linkages. This is actually an idea I've had for a while, however cost implications have meant the idea has been on the back burner.

To further complicate matters, we're currently in deepest darkest France. The next place we were hoping to stop at for a length of time is Sant Carles in Spain. We were then hoping to stop in Corfu for the winter.

I would really appreciate any advice anyone might be able to offer. Even any other options I have overlooked. We are on a budget as we are travelling for a couple of years, however if it really comes to it, we may need to break open the piggy bank.

 

[NormanS]

Hydraulic rams work all over the world in situations where they are exposed to all the elements. Suggest that your ram has been made using inappropriate materials.

 

[Sandyman]

Morning Cardo

Can understand your predicament. We also have hydraulic steering.

Seems daft to me that anyone would leave a ram, such as yours exposed, to the elements.

Myself I would look at getting it overhauled. As it was custom made it is quite likely the manufacturers will have, or know where to get, replacement seals etc etc. I would then look at building some kind of boxing or protective cover of some sort. Not ideal but far less costly than doing major works.

Would be interested to see your steering set up...................got any phots you can post. Might give a better idea.

Sandy

 

[RobinBirch]

I think some weeping from a ram is par for the course. I replaced a Vetus steering ram on my boat because of weeping from the seal. The replacement (Vetus) was pretty much the same. How often are you having to top up and with how much fluid?

 

[Cardo]

Morning Cardo

Can understand your predicament. We also have hydraulic steering.

I think if done properly it's not really a problem!

Seems daft to me that anyone would leave a ram, such as yours exposed, to the elements.

This has become clear to me! Didn't really consider the implications when buying the boat!

Myself I would look at getting it overhauled. As it was custom made it is quite likely the manufacturers will have, or know where to get, replacement seals etc etc. I would then look at building some kind of boxing or protective cover of some sort. Not ideal but far less costly than doing major works.

The problem with overhauling it as I see is it looks pretty difficult to take apart due to the paint and rust. I may be able to do it myself, but there's a good chance I'd need to pay someone else to do it for me. Therefore, costs. Whilst I don't mind paying for necessary work, I'm just a bit weary of paying to fix something that may well happen again in the near future. As for building some kind of box, this is another tough one. The ram moves around as the rudders turn. This is why it is held in place by steel wires to allow it some movement. I'm not entirely sure how I would encapsulate the system.

Would be interested to see your steering set up...................got any phots you can post. Might give a better idea.

Sandy

I can't upload at the moment as the wifi I'm using has most ports blocked but I'll post something when I can.

 

[Cardo]

I think some weeping from a ram is par for the course. I replaced a Vetus steering ram on my boat because of weeping from the seal. The replacement (Vetus) was pretty much the same. How often are you having to top up and with how much fluid?

Well, it's only in the last three weeks that we've been using the steering for a number of hours a day as we're motoring along the French canals. I've now had to top up the reservoir twice, which is around 500ml a time. Well, probably a bit less than that. I'd say the seepage is definitely more than a small weep, seeing as when we stop in any still water, we leave an oily deposit around our stern. Somewhat embarrassing!
The ram has pistons coming out either side. One for each rudder. Only one of these has oil seeping out. The other is pretty much dry. Well, not dry, but it's not leaking.

 

[Sandyman]

Which ever option you choose, advise getting it done before you go to sea.
I am quite knowledgeable in hydraulic but without seeing or knowing the system layout its difficult to visualise to give considered & meaningful advise.

 

[RobinBirch]

Yep, 500ml a time is more than a weep.

Good luck with repair.

 

[MASH]

Before you go too much further I think you need to examine the leaking ram to see what is wrong. Rams leak for two main reasons. Either the ram, which should be a perfectly smooth metal surface is pitted thus allowing droplets of oil to fill the voids and then wash out when that part of the ram moves past the seal, and/or the seal is damaged.

You'll need access to the unit and carefully examine it by sight and touch for imperfections on the ram's surface, making sure you check all the accessible surface by extending one ram after the other. You may even be able to see the weep. If you are lucky and the rams are OK it is likely to be the seal which should be reasonably accessible though it may mean removing the unit from the boat. Seals are almost always standard sizes and thus in theory easily sourced.

A pitted or corroded ram is an engineering job. In which case try googling for hydraulic ram refurbishment or similar, it might be repairable, dunno, never been there. edit. ram refurbishment is widely available via a google search. Brush up your technical French! As they specialise in plant and industrial equipment fast turnaround is pretty standard it seems.

Do also check that the leak isn't elsewhere and the oil migrating away from the source. Hydraulic oil is mobile stuff.

 

[TQA]

One piece of good news for you is that the seals are likely to be available off the shelf. It is worth contacting the manufacturer and asking them to see if they can locate the build details with the seal dimensions.

Get a set of seals and rebuild the ram. It is not rocket science although you may need to beg borrow or steal a set of C wrenches. Cost should not be tot great. Then see if that fixes the problem..

 

[Bobobolinsky]

Before you go too much further I think you need to examine the leaking ram to see what is wrong. Rams leak for two main reasons. Either the ram, which should be a perfectly smooth metal surface is pitted thus allowing droplets of oil to fill the voids and then wash out when that part of the ram moves past the seal, and/or the seal is damaged.

You'll need access to the unit and carefully examine it by sight and touch for imperfections on the ram's surface, making sure you check all the accessible surface by extending one ram after the other. You may even be able to see the weep. If you are lucky and the rams are OK it is likely to be the seal which should be reasonably accessible though it may mean removing the unit from the boat. Seals are almost always standard sizes and thus in theory easily sourced.

A pitted or corroded ram is an engineering job. In which case try googling for hydraulic ram refurbishment or similar, it might be repairable, dunno, never been there. edit. ram refurbishment is widely available via a google search. Brush up your technical French! As they specialise in plant and industrial equipment fast turnaround is pretty standard it seems.

Do also check that the leak isn't elsewhere and the oil migrating away from the source. Hydraulic oil is mobile stuff.

In the short term, a local plant company will either be able to repair the ram or know someone who can. Hydraulic ram repairs are very common, from new seals to new rods,rams and cylinders. Like bearings, it all comes sized stock material.

 

[gordmac]

Given that outboards and legs use hydraulic cylinders that live out near or in the water for trim/tilt and they seem to cope fine it looks like your cylinders are not the right materials. Could you adapt a trim/tilt cylinder or use bits from one?

 

[sarabande]

I'm slightly concerned that the ram appears to be fixed loosely to allow re-alignment as the rudders move. That seems to me to be a pretty un-engineered fix, as if one rudder is constrained (boat well heeled, perhaps) the ram might move excessively against its wire restraints.

Pics would be really helpful pls.

 

[savageseadog]

It might be possible to fit a gaiter of some kind to the ram? Otherwise fixing hydraulic rams is everyday stuff, not expensive.

 

[vas]

would be easier to comment after a few pics are posted, just to add that I've rebuilt a ram for the amazing sum of 12euro (for seals) plus a couple of hours scrapping a few coats of paint to "reach" the screws.
Remove it, clean it, take it apart, walk to a machinist/seal shop, they fit the seals for you and off you go!
[of course all that asuming that the cylinder is not pitted]

ah, btw, LOTS and I mean LOTS of fishing boats around here are converted to hydraulic steering and due to the hull design, the ram is all nicely exposed to the elements. They all work

good luck and fix it before you go in the open

V.

 

[savageseadog]

You might also consider a bronze ram

 

[Daydream believer]

I cannot understand the "restrained by wires" i would have thought that the end of the ram would sit on a pivot ( bolt etc) then the other end would be free to move a little as the centre of effort of the quadrant ( or whatever) rotated.
But considering the hammering the rams get on my diggers, being positioned as described should not be an issue as exchange rams are easily available. Sometimes the chromed pistons get chipped & this rips the seals. But even that is cheap to sort
One company who could sort it would be Medway Hydraulics if they are still going. Not sure where you are based. But there are loads of hydraulic & hose repair co's . Several where i used to operate in thurrock

 

[Cardo]

Ok, here's some pics that should hopefully help:

So this is the ram. You can see the piston sticking out of the starboard side. There is a mirror image piston sticking out of the port side.

Here you can get a better idea of how it's positioned. You can see the starboard wire holding the ram in place and the way the piston is attached to the rudder. The ram is held by wires as this moves forward and aft slightly as the rudders turn. Not the way I would design it! The white thing at the back is just part of the rudder sensor for the autopilot.

And here is the condition of the piston. This is what you see when the steering is turned mostly to starboard. There appears to be some considerable damage to the chrome, not sure how that occurred. There is also some minor pitting that you can see to the right of the picture. I think it's the damage in the centre that's caused the issue. At the left of the picture, you can see the seeping coming from the ram. This picture is taken facing up, so you're looking at the bottom side.

 

[chasroberts]

If you do get round to redesigning have a look under the shelf in the rear cabin for room. We have our 105 (Noosa - Sail no. 35) fitted with aRaymarine 6000 autopilot and the ram lives in that space happily with a quadrant (which I replaced a few years ago). Not totally protected but more so than being outside of the boat I would have thought. We are near the end of the French canals so when you get down here let me know. We could organize the first Southerly Western Med Rally?.........

Happy sailing. I hope you get sorted soon.

Chas

 

[Cardo]

If you do get round to redesigning have a look under the shelf in the rear cabin for room. We have our 105 (Noosa - Sail no. 35) fitted with aRaymarine 6000 autopilot and the ram lives in that space happily with a quadrant (which I replaced a few years ago). Not totally protected but more so than being outside of the boat I would have thought. We are near the end of the French canals so when you get down here let me know. We could organize the first Southerly Western Med Rally?.........

Happy sailing. I hope you get sorted soon.

Chas

That is the exact space I would put a replacement ram and wish the previous owner had done that!
When you say you replaced the quadrant, I presume you mean the one that the cable steering was attached to?
My biggest problem with the idea of redoing the steering is that I'd have to obtain a replacement pintle as the original was taken to the scrappy by previous owner. Don't think there's such a thing as a boat breakers where I could get one from an old 105! So likely to need to have one built from scratch = £££!