possible prob with gas

[bernieoldham]

not flatulence before someone, quips in
but the bottled calor gas on board. on the bottom of the kettle and on the cooker there is a small amount of black carbon build up after boiling kettle .may sound like silly question but is this normal .because i suspect carbon is interfering with thermo couple on electrolux fridge ie narrowing or interfering with flame . cooker is only couple of years old .so shouldnt be that .need to know whats normal, as not used bottled gas for 10 years before buying boat. thanks

 

[Anonymous]

Regarding the cooker, since the kettle has a sooty bottom there is no doubt that your gas is burning too 'rich' - i.e. too little air in the gas/air mixture. That can be due to several things:-

An obstruction or reduction in the airways on the hob
The wrong regulator or a defective regulator
The wrong gas - e.g. propane instead of butane - being used

If there is soot build up on the fridge as well, then wrong regulator or wrong gas sounds like the most likely problem.

Can you tell us exactly what kit you have - type of gas bottle, type and whereabouts and mounting of regulator and what type and age [edit, you told us the age, sorry] of cooker?

When was the gas system last inspected professionally? Did the previous owner install the cooker himself? Any receipts for gas work done in your papers?

 

[poter]

Anything to do with gas go here Calor
take down all the details of your cooker, fridge your gas reg & your gas bottle & have a chat with them.
They will give you excellent advice, also have a look at the web site some very usefull tips.


poter

 

[oldharry]

Its normal. I have yet to see a gas cooker that doesnt produce some blackening of pots and pans.

The burner flame in both the cooker and fridge should be blue. If it is showing anything more than a tiny bit of yellow at the tip of the flame, then there is a problem which needs a Gas engineer to sort. Yellow flames give an increased carbon Monoxide content - the more yellow showing , the more CO is produced , which can be rapidly lethal particularly in the confines of a small boat cabin. Even blue flames produce a small amount of Carbon Monoxide, so the cabin must always be ventilated when the cooker or fridge is in use.

Gas fridges in Caravans are vented directly outside - not so easy to arrange in a boat. Also you need to be certain the flame fail safe on the fridge is 100% - common wisdom had it that naked flame gas fridges are unsuitable for small boat use, though maybe modern ones are better?

 

[MoodySabre]

I get black on the bottom of kettle and saucepans. I have a new cooker (2006) and some pipework was replaced last year and the gas safety certificate was issued. I assumed blackening was normal with camping gas that I use. Don't know about calor. Will watch this thread with interest.

 

[baggypipes]

BEST ADVICE & i'm sure some on the forum would disagree.
don.t mess about with gas on your boat get a QUALIFIED CORGI REGISTERD fitter in to sort it & any old gas fittings especially as you indicated it was fitted by previous owner & system is old. Remember it is your life at risk & if anything happens at sea you've only got the sea to jump into IF you are lucky. Also think about you insurance would they pay up knowing non corgi did the work. I have worked with gas but not prepared to advse on any set up nor should any other non Reg reader. It's you life, forget the cost for peace of mind it'll be worth it.
Hope this is useful, best of luck.

 

[bernieoldham]

thanks guys much apreciated .i was starting to suspect faulty reg ,but before i spend fortune on getting professional in to check it out . thought id run it by readers here first.
ill try new regulator first .easiest thing to try .
what i forgot to mention on previous post was .fridge is always going out .gas switching off
what i was trying to say about thermocouple on fridge was when you look into back of fridge you see small flame keeping thermocouple on. flame flickers and moves about thus cooling tip of thermocouple
shutting off gas (has its supposed to do) the flame should, i presume. stay steady .i was thinking maybe the carbon has affected the jets in some way .what if i run compressed air thought it gently. low psi . or is it just worth getting experts to start sucking between his teeth .
thanks again

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Its normal. I have yet to see a gas cooker that doesn't produce some blackening of pots and pans.

[/ QUOTE ]We don't have any blackening with our Ino and we had no soot from the Plastimo 2000 we had on the previous boat. We live aboard and I would not have yellow flame or soot for an instant. It certainly isn't necessary and something is wrong - I certainly wouldn't call it 'normal'.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
ill try new regulator first .easiest thing to try .

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, it is easy, but they are pretty reliable. If it is quite new then unless you can see signs of damage or corrosion, it's unlikely to be that provided it is the correct regulator for the type of gas? Still, regulators should be changed every five years, ISTR.

[ QUOTE ]
what i forgot to mention on previous post was .fridge is always going out .gas switching off

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't you say that the fridge flame was yellow-ish? Yellow flames are MUCH cooler than blue flames and in any case they should not be yellow - is the fridge flued or do the gasses go into the cabin?

[ QUOTE ]
shutting off gas (has its supposed to do) the flame should, i presume. stay steady

[/ QUOTE ] If you shut off the gas the flame should go out.

[ QUOTE ]
.i was thinking maybe the carbon has affected the jets in some way .what if i run compressed air thought it gently. low psi .

[/ QUOTE ] There's no harm in using compressed air to clean around the burners, etc, but don't try to squirt it down the gas pipes as they are designed for 12 mB not 3 B or more and the regulator would probably be well and truly [--word removed--] (can I say that word here?). Normally you clean jets with a pricker of the appropriate size. Fine fuse wire usually does the job if you don't have the right pricker. A soft, long-handled brush is great for dust and a wire brush for any bits of metalwork that are corroding.

 

[VicS]

A little blackening of the kettle bottom over a long period may not be significant but anything that can be described as "carbon build up" indicates that something is wrong.

I agree wrong type of gas for the appliances/regulator in use or a defective regulator are the prime suspects.

It is recommended that regulators are replaced at intervals of 10 years so if it is over 10 then it should be replaced as a matter of course. (Note that hoses should be replaced every 5 years)

 

[bernieoldham]

the flame is perfect blue no yellow at tip of flame or anywhere .even on thermocouple on fridge but the flickering flame .moves off thermocouple and so turns fridge off.i was hoping cleaning of jet or new regulator would cure it
it is flued by the way
boat is 1983 so chances are regulator has never been replaced .gentleman i brought boat from was very thorough
but tended to diy instead of spending money when it needed to be.ill try reg first .before i get pros in
cheers

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
the flickering flame .moves off thermocouple and so turns fridge off

[/ QUOTE ] The flame sounds a bit unstable. That's just a pilot? A good clean up might sort it out, air ways as well as jet, or it might need a bit of adjustment. Is there any back draught down the flue that can cause any problem?

 

[bernieoldham]

thanks Vics ,yea always chance that there could be back draft .but flue pipe quite convoluted .would need to travel quite a ways to affect flame (1 metre) does standard flue kit have some kind of baffle to stop ingress of wind

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
BEST ADVICE & i'm sure some on the forum would disagree.
don.t mess about with gas on your boat get a QUALIFIED CORGI REGISTERD fitter in to sort it & any old gas fittings especially as you indicated it was fitted by previous owner & system is old. Remember it is your life at risk & if anything happens at sea you've only got the sea to jump into IF you are lucky. Also think about you insurance would they pay up knowing non corgi did the work. I have worked with gas but not prepared to advse on any set up nor should any other non Reg reader. It's you life, forget the cost for peace of mind it'll be worth it.
Hope this is useful, best of luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great if you can TRUST all Corgi guys .... having had a house system fitted by a Corgi guy in the past - who was then HAULED back to the house by the electrician completing the electrical setups ... why ? In the words of the builder and Electrician - "a bl****y monkey could do better !".

He had fitted the boiler and pipework so shoddilly that the "non-corgi" guys - the builder and electrician refused to complete their work till he corrected it. He admitted after that it was seriously at fault and could have literally blown the house away ... and us in it. So God save Non - Corgi guys ... they saved my life literally.

I agree that gas is a dangerous fuel and should be treated with respect - but sensible approach, sensible work and care is all needed to complete a good job. Unless of course it's an Inland Waterways boat .. then you are forced to use the "dog" ...

The old argument of Insurance is twaddle actually - only comes in when a surveyor etc. puts comment in report or an accident occurs that involves gas ... and let's be honest yes there have been some horrendous gas accidents - but VERY few on boats - I mean boats that are NOT subject to Corgi. IMHO I reckon there are as many incidents with boats subject to Corgi as there are for boats not subject to Corgi (the "Dog" ..... nicknamed after Queens Corgis !!)

But of course it will be rolled out again and again ... Corgi this Corgi that ...

Blimey have a look at Rogue Traders on TV ... that's enough !

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
a bl****y monkey could do better

[/ QUOTE ] I'm with you there. But "would have been better off with a french poodle" was what I told told the pack of dogs called back to rectify numerous defects on new installation in a school labaoratory where I worked at one time. Didn't go down to well!

Shouldn't tar them all with the same brush though.

The guidance should be to get a "competant gas fitter" to sort out gas problems.

 

[Bilgediver]

get a QUALIFIED CORGI REGISTERD fitter in
...........................................................................

Unfortunately easier said than done...there is Corgi and there is Corgi and your insures are likely to have as low opinion of a Corgi engineer who does not have LPG marine certification as no certification at all. Finding a Corgi engineer with the correct certification outside of Southampton is like finding a needle in a haystack and the run of the mill Mr Fixit in yellow pages does not have the correct certification!!!!

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
Finding a Corgi engineer with the correct certification outside of Southampton is like finding a needle in a haystack

[/ QUOTE ] At the risk of seeming to support CORGI you can always try their "Find an installer" tool HERE

I found four within 5 miles of my boat, one of whom is actually in Birdham!

 

[Bilgediver]

I found four within 5 miles of my boat, one of whom is actually in Birdham!

Please note that there are now 5 levels of Corgi certification....I think you will find these are 99% Home fitters for natural gas and DO NOT HAVE Corgi certification for LPG in mobile homes and boats which is a certification few apply to take as it costs money.

Ring them and ask the question.....can you show you have certification for installing LPG systems on Boats????

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
DO NOT HAVE Corgi certification for LPG in mobile homes and boats

[/ QUOTE ] These are details you enter into the website together with the type of gas. Do take the trouble to look at the info I posted before criticising it.

Moreover Corgis who are found to be working outside their area of registration can be "struck off".

 

[misterg]

[ QUOTE ]
what i was trying to say about thermocouple on fridge was when you look into back of fridge you see small flame keeping thermocouple on. flame flickers and moves about thus cooling tip of thermocouple shutting off gas (has its supposed to do) the flame should, i presume. stay steady .i was thinking maybe the carbon has affected the jets in some way

[/ QUOTE ]

WARNING! Be aware that 'many' LPG appliances use an 'Oxygen Depletion Sensor', which is a glorified pilot light. I couldn't find a picture of one online, but did find the following which backs up my understanding:

[ QUOTE ]
An Oxygen Depletion Sensor (ODS) detects when oxygen levels in the room fall below a specified level and cause the pilot flame to lift away from the sensing probe. This activates the flame supervision device, which cuts off the gas supply to the fire and renders the appliance safe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've no idea if your fridge is fitted with one of these (my guess would be that it is), but maybe it's trying to tell you something about general ventilation (same would cause soot on your kettle).

Please don't go sticking anything through jets to clean them - the ODS pilot lights that I'm aware of have a precisely drilled jet made out of industrial ruby which passes just enough gas to burn at 'safe' oxygen levels, but not so much that it stays lit at lower levels. Sticking something through it to 'clean' it (you can barely see the hole!) will let more gas through, and seem to cure the problem, but you won't have an ODS any more, you'll have a pilot light. By all means replace the assembly , but absolutely DON'T BUGGER ABOUT WITH IT! (Sorry, but this is one of the few bits of gas stuff that nobody other than the manufacturer is equipped to mess with.)

The soot on you kettle is caused by poor combustion of the gas. There's no way this will be present inside the gas jets. A likely culprit is that the mixing tubes between the jets and the burners, or the burners themselves have become clogged by rust. It's usually straightforward to dismantle far enough to hoover these out (you don't need to unscrew any gas pipes or jets). If this doesn't bring an immediate improvement, then check the gas pressure (easy DIY, or CORGI if you aren't sure). If still no better, and particularly in view of the problems you're having with the fridge, I'd take a hard look at ventillation. If you know what it's supposed to be, then it's easy to check but otherwise find a Gas Man.

If the frdge is fitted with an ODS, get to the root of this problem as a matter of urgency (may just be a replacement sensor ~£25 ish? may be warning of a lack of ventilation / build up of combustion products. What's that worth?)

Paranoid

Andy