Porto Montengro home base for sailing Croatia

[BartW]

Last week I visited Dubrovnik area and Porto Montengro,
we are considering to bring the boat there for the next season.

Porto Montenegro is a purpose build marina, by a few 'famous' investors,
there used to be a navy marine on that place,

the marina is in Montengro, at 10 nm from the Croatian Border
20nm from the first small Croatian city called Cavtat
and 30nm from Dubrovnic (often called the "juwel" in the Adriatic see)

will try to post some pictures later

 

[BartW]

post copyed from the other thread

BartW, if your "base" marina is Montenegro, can you buy that diesel there, then cruise up into Croatia with it? Or do you have to pay Croatia tax somehow?

Also can someone comment briefly on the paperwork for crusing Croatia? I hear you have to do paperwork for each trip and each time you have new guests on board. Is this all quite easy?

Reason for asking is that I too have an idea to put the boat in PM for a whole summer - 2014 or 2015 maybe. Very easy travel from London - Dubrovnik

In PM are lots of Brit flagged charter boats for that purpose,
the rule is that you can navigate in Croatia, if the charter starts outside or ends outside of Croatia,
you probably know that you cant run a charter boat/business in Croatia, unless the boat is Croatia flagged, and you have a Croatian charter company.

the customs procedure is like Deleted User explains, the same as before, (I did it with the Karnic 3y ago)
you have to clear Montenegro customs when leaving PM, the customs office is in the marina
and when entering Cavtat, you first have to moor on the Croat customs quai, and show the paperwork at customs office and harbour master,
and buy a vignet (valid for a year)
the crew and guests list still is a very important document in Croatia, it needs to be stamped by the harbour master
when you change guests on the boat during your trip, you need to change the list and have it stamped again !
these offices are on the quai in Cavtat.
Only then you can moor on the normal quai in Cavtat, or continue your voyage.
there are no extra charges or taxes to pay.
last week I spoke with the harbour guy in Cavtat and PM, and both confirm that the time for the passage is ok,
but the problem last season was that the fuel station pump in PM is too slow.
Actually this winter they are expanding the PM marina, and installing a much bigger fuel station, with bigger pumps (4 boats fueling simultaniously)
You can not have a truck fuel supply in PM.

also private boats can buy detax diesel in PM, but then they need to leave Montenegro immediately after fueling,
so some of them go for lunch to Cavtat, and return to PM the same day.

we've decided to go to PM for the 2014 summer season, as our kids and friends would love to go back to the place where we have spend 11 summer holliday's. We made lots of friends over there,
and now is a good moment with all the hassle of the new VAT arrangement in FR and IT on boat Charters.

its possible to fly to Dubrovnic, only 46km drive to PM, but mostly speed limit of 50 km/hr, or even 40km/hr, and a short ferry passage, so last week it took us 1h30mins from the airport to PM.
But in summer there are frequent flights from London to Tivat,
Tivat airport is 10 min's from PM.

just one warning, there are lots of Russians in PM, remember they have the same religion and culture, and similar language, like Montenegro,
but the PM harbour guy convinced me that they behave !
the marina is owned by 6 famous western europe investing co's, and ran very professional.
the marina is very clean and nice athmosphere, everybody is extremely friendly.

since recently the russians need a visa to enter Croatia,
this pulls them off, and therefor some of them stay in Montenegro, which is also a very nice sailing area

 

[BartW]

Ooh thats cheap diesel. Yup plenty of yards in Split/Sibenik area but too far away from Montenegro for minor repairs. Montenegro would be better place for overwintering as there are all year flights to Dubrovnik, at least for us, whereas flights to Split stop in October. My big concern with Montenegro is getting complex maintenance work done like engine repairs/servicing which is why I was interested if there were any reputable maintenance companies in Porto Montenegro

Deleted User, in case your new boat has MAN engines, I could do the maintenance job for you, and in case you have the MTU's, I think Hurricane wouldn't mind to visit you and do that for you,

joking aside,
I think that in PM are that many MY's, much much more than any place in Croatia, that availability of services must grow there very quick.
the PM guy told me that many brit crew or maintenance people are quickly replaced by the much sheaper Montengro and Croatian guy's.

The Montenegro area used to be very "poor",
this new marina brings a lot of money to the area,
many local people want to be involved in one way or the other.

Montenegro and Croatians have a a heritage of working on boats,
they have dedicated schools for that, with a good reputation.
a big share of crew on commercial ships are Croats (up to Captains and Engineers, ...)

and for me,
anything is better then boat service in SOF; availability of skilled mantenance guy's,
not even mentioning their rates

 

[jfm]

BartW, thank you very much for all this info. Really useful.

One further question: my boat is registered in the name of my company, but used by me. The company is a UK company, 100% owned by me, and its only purpose is to own the boat: it will not have a business and will not be chartering the boat. Do you think this will cause a paperwork problem? Do you think Croatia will say "Then the company MUST be chartering the boat to you JFM"?

No worries if you do not know the answer to these questions, but I thought you might know!

Ultimately I can change the boat registration and register it in my personal name

 

[BartW]

BartW, thank you very much for all this info. Really useful.

One further question: my boat is registered in the name of my company, but used by me. The company is a UK company, 100% owned by me, and its only purpose is to own the boat: it will not have a business and will not be chartering the boat. Do you think this will cause a paperwork problem? Do you think Croatia will say "Then the company MUST be chartering the boat to you JFM"?

No worries if you do not know the answer to these questions, but I thought you might know!

Ultimately I can change the boat registration and register it in my personal name

I don't know for sure,
my Karnic is also registered on a company and this never caused a problem,
I carry a document saying that it is my company.
I 've had police checks at least ones every season
I've never had douane controlls out on the water, only at border crossing offices
main thing was the crew list, vignette and insurance

I schall asc my local friend lawyer over there, when I'm there on a next occasion,

my problem is that on top of the company reg, the boat has never been VAT payed,
so this might be a issue when not chartering, but I believe thats no issue for you.
so I will alway's be chartering, also to myself.
the company needs enough income anyway to pay all the bills

 

[BartW]

Yes, EU membership ought (you'd think) to reduce crew list paperwork because EU citizens are meant to have "freedom of movement" within the EU.

Yes, but don't forget that the Croats still have that war in their minds, and would like to know if you have Serbs, or Russions, or non katholics onboard....
especially if they know you come from the south / non EU country.

by the way, do you know that Montenegro is the only non european country that has Euro currency
story goes that at the time, the gouvernment collected all the country's Dinars, and brought them to Germany to change them for Deutch Mark,
and later they became euro's...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

One further question: my boat is registered in the name of my company, but used by me. The company is a UK company, 100% owned by me, and its only purpose is to own the boat: it will not have a business and will not be chartering the boat. Do you think this will cause a paperwork problem? Do you think Croatia will say "Then the company MUST be chartering the boat to you JFM"?

My boat is also registered in a UK company name and nobody has ever questioned that in Croatia. Certainly if you do openly offer your boat for charter there, theoretically the boat should be registered under the Croatian flag, owned by a Croatian company and pay VAT and other taxes in Croatia. By accident I also carry a SSR reg document with me named personally as the owner; I've never given it to any official but I suppose if anybody was worried about owning a boat via a company, they should just get a SSR document and use that.
I have had one on water check by Croatian customs but as BartW says, they were only interested in the vignette, crew list + passports and insurance. As I said in another post, I believe that the crew list is obsolete now that Croatia is in the EU so IMHO, their main focus in the future will be the vignette only

 

[jfm]

I don't know for sure,
my Karnic is also registered on a company and this never caused a problem,
I carry a document saying that it is my company.
I 've had police checks at least ones every season
I've never had douane controlls out on the water, only at border crossing offices
main thing was the crew list, vignette and insurance

I schall asc my local friend lawyer over there, when I'm there on a next occasion,

my problem is that on top of the company reg, the boat has never been VAT payed,
so this might be a issue when not chartering, but I believe thats no issue for you.
so I will alway's be chartering, also to myself.
the company needs enough income anyway to pay all the bills

Thanks BartW
FWIW, all very useful thanks.

I'm telling you how to suck eggs of course, but ALL of your holidays will need to start and end in Montenegro not Croatia, otherwise you would have to pay 25% VAT on the charter fees paid by you to the company. This is just detail, not any problem

 

[jfm]

My boat is also registered in a UK company name and nobody has ever questioned that in Croatia. Certainly if you do openly offer your boat for charter there, theoretically the boat should be registered under the Croatian flag, owned by a Croatian company and pay VAT and other taxes in Croatia. By accident I also carry a SSR reg document with me named personally as the owner; I've never given it to any official but I suppose if anybody was worried about owning a boat via a company, they should just get a SSR document and use that.
I have had one on water check by Croatian customs but as BartW says, they were only interested in the vignette, crew list + passports and insurance. As I said in another post, I believe that the crew list is obsolete now that Croatia is in the EU so IMHO, their main focus in the future will be the vignette only

Thanks Deleted User - very useful. Sounds like I'm good to go then

 

[BartW]

Thanks BartW
FWIW, all very useful thanks.

I'm telling you how to suck eggs of course, but ALL of your holidays will need to start and end in Montenegro not Croatia, otherwise you would have to pay 25% VAT on the charter fees paid by you to the company. This is just detail, not any problem

its either start OR end a charter in Croatia.
the commercial guy (Becket Tucker) in PM told me that the majority of the MY's in PM are charter boats based there just for that purpose
he will be again at boot Dusseldorf next year, met him there the first time in jan this year.

the only thing I don't know yet for sure,
if I have one charter contract fe during 4 weeks, can I change the guests onboard,
some local guy's adviced "yes", just need to change the "guest list" and have it stamped at the harbour masters office
but want to see this myself, if there isn't then any conflict in the paperwork...
it might be more convenient to change guests in Cavtat, 3km from the DUB airport,
and I know the berth allocator in Cavtat very well

 

[jfm]

its either start OR end a charter in Croatia.

That's exactly what I wrote

the only thing I don't know yet for sure,
if I have one charter contract fe during 4 weeks, can I change the guests onboard,

I think the normal EU rule is that you must have the same charterer onboard (eg you) but your guests can change, because it is the same contract with the same contracting party on board the whole time

But the Croatians might not agree... Worth asking your contacts therefore!

 

[BartW]

That's exactly what I wrote

it occurs to me very often on here that I read to briefly, and miss some details, (nature of a forum ? )
but in this occasion I read: start AND end in Montengro ?

but ALL of your holidays will need to start and end in Montenegro not Croatia,

while I wrote "start OR end "

I think the normal EU rule is that you must have the same charterer onboard (eg you) but your guests can change, because it is the same contract with the same contracting party on board the whole time

But the Croatians might not agree... Worth asking your contacts therefore!

actually I never had a contract with myself, mostly it was one of the guests, or a sponsoring company.....
but yes, there are some options there,

just want to have it save and clear for any inspecting authority's

 

[jfm]

Um, Bart, I said your holidays must start AND end in Montenegro (in order to escape Croatia VAT). You wrote I think that if the holiday starts OR finishes in Croatia there is Croatia VAT

Umm, those two things are the same.

Am I missing something, or have you had a lot of wine with your lunch today

 

[BartW]

Um, Bart, I said your holidays must start AND end in Montenegro (in order to escape Croatia VAT). You wrote I think that if the holiday starts OR finishes in Croatia there is Croatia VAT

Umm, those two things are the same.

Am I missing something, or have you had a lot of wine with your lunch today

thats the point J,
they guy's I spoke in with in PM, are firm that the charter:

can Start in Montenegro and End in Montenegro
or
Start in Montenegro and End in Croatia
or
Start in Croatia and End in Montenegro

all without VAT

fe
I start a charter contract in Montenegro and sail to Split,
from there start a new charter contract, and end that one in Montenegro,
both contracts are due no VAT, according the info I got from the guy in PM.

I know this is not according european VAT regs
officially in other country's, VAT is due in the place / country where the charter starts as you know.

no wine right now, I try to loose some weight at the moment,
remains from the good live all summer

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

thats the point J,
they guy's I spoke in with in PM, are firm that the charter:

Are you guys saying that if you base yourself in PM and providing you start or end your Croatian charter in PM, you avoid all the necessity for registering in Croatia and owning the boat thru a Croatian company? If thats the case, thats v interesting info for me. I have been doing a small amount of 'unofficial' charter in Croatia to friends but if I upgrade my boat, I'd like to do more. What's the charter market like in PM? Are there charter agencies there?

 

[jfm]

Ah OK Bart. Thanks for explaining - we were at crossed purposes

I am not 100% sure, but I definitely would not assume that is correct VAT advice. I do not have time to look it up now, but my quite strong memory of the relevant law (at the EU level - not how it has been implemented in Croatia) is that the charter WILL be subject to VAT in the country where it starts. I cannot remember what the law says about where the charter ends. The relevant search string if anyone wants to google will be something like "VAT place of supply rules for services", dated I think 2011. Remember that will usually get you to the EU law. The actual applicable law is Croatia domestic law, but they are supposed to implement the law according to EU rules and they will face "policing" by EC if they don't do that. As newbies in the EU, they ought to be on good behaviour

 

[BartW]

Are you guys saying that if you base yourself in PM and providing you start or end your Croatian charter in PM, you avoid all the necessity for registering in Croatia and owning the boat thru a Croatian company? If thats the case, thats v interesting info for me. I have been doing a small amount of 'unofficial' charter in Croatia to friends but if I upgrade my boat, I'd like to do more. What's the charter market like in PM? Are there charter agencies there?

thats exactly whats happening Mike,
there are 4 or 5 charter agency's in PM, Becket Tucker pointed them to us, when he showed us around in PM on his golf caddy
and they are all very bussy (mainly with Russion charter guests), but thats not part of my plan over there.

how do you think that all these big super yachts (many Brit flagged charter) travel through Croatia ?

 

[BartW]

I am not 100% sure, but I definitely would not assume that is correct VAT advice. I do not have time to look it up now, but my quite strong memory of the relevant law (at the EU level - not how it has been implemented in Croatia) is that the charter WILL be subject to VAT in the country where it starts. I cannot remember what the law says about where the charter ends. The relevant search string if anyone wants to google will be something like "VAT place of supply rules for services", dated I think 2011. Remember that will usually get you to the EU law. The actual applicable law is Croatia domestic law, but they are supposed to implement the law according to EU rules and they will face "policing" by EC if they don't do that. As newbies in the EU, they ought to be on good behaviour

you could be 100% right on this, I never heard / read anything official regarding the place where the charter "stops,"
but I'm quite sure that this is domestic practice from before they joined EU, and that rules might change in the near future...
but this detail is no big deal for me.

But being able to change guests during the period of the charter contract would be usefull for me,

 

[MapisM]

Montenegro, which is also a very nice sailing area

Is it, really, B?
During all the years which we spent cruising HR, we never went further S than Dubrovnik, so I don't have any first hand experience, but that's also because all boaters we met who went there told us that the Montenegro coast is nowhere near the Croatian one: no islands and very few sheltered bays for overnighting.
Which are exactly the nicest things of the Croatian coast, imho....
....but you're now make me wondering if we missed something!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

how do you think that all these big super yachts (many Brit flagged charter) travel through Croatia ?

Dunno, never occurred to me