Port Volvo Penta D3 200 AG disel engine cranks but will not start - no fault codes and was OK at end of July 2021.

hence first call is fuel. However, if OP has a common tank on his boat for both engines, it's going to be difficult to justify fuel bug on one engine, other being fine.
OTOH, if there are two separate fuel systems with no balancing pipes (or with closed balance cocks) that's definitely the first to look at
 
Also the Op reports zero codes .
CR injectors are indeed uber sensitive to fuel quality , water contamination in particular as it separates into hydrogen and the destroying the tips in the excess heat .
To that end even VP I would imagine fit suitable sensors and alarms to protect the injectors …….and via the “ screen “ inform the operator ie throw a code ? Surely?

Op informs us fuel has been drained off and appears ok visually .

@ Corona mia did you get any warning / codes re the bad fuel ? You said “ similiar “ how similar cranking with no firing and zero dash codes / alarms ?


Just seems odd in today’s world of multiple sensor electrotwackery ECU controlled engines with a screen , the Op gets zilch feed back .

The only issue I have had with 2003 era none CR but stuffed with electrotwackery, a sensor on every thing MAN s is a “ Overload “ alarm .
I went out in 2020 middle of Covid etc props filthy after boat stud months in a marina .
Normally I ease up the speed and sit it low twenties to scrub the fouling , spin it off the props .
But at a lower say iirc 22 knots the stb motor overload alarm went off and it went into limp mode ( up to 1200 rpm )
The screen flash “ overload “ and various red LEDs light up .

After clearing the fault which you can do on the screen and a restart my idea it was ok up to 100 % load disarmed the 1200 limiter but repeated as soon as it got close to 100 % .
Other engine was fine just kept running .
I anchored dived in and manually scrubbed the stern gear .
All was well but the screen now displayed “ load sensor error “ and alarmed at every start , which I just cleared off .

No show stopper but via the screen i felt the system worked with me ,told me what’s going on .

E mailed the local to me MAN guys who returned the msg it was ok to use the boat gently and they would attend in the next few days as none urgent .
The guy arrived with a case full of adaptors + lap top .Dived into the ER opened up the remote mounted ECU box plugged in the lap top .We fired up the motor , the “ load sensor error”: alarmed off he got it up in the screen showing everything it’s resistance, voltage , impedance etc etc and then the lap top displays what it should be in a bar charts = faulty sensor on cylinder 1 .
Took all of 15 mins .
He then went down in the ER ( his lap top was on the cockpit tabke connected via a long unbiblical ) to fiddle with the wiring in case of a pull and took a multi meter to manually test it .

A few days later returned with a new cylinder 1 whole injector as the sensor is Integral and replaced the duff one .Then repeated the lap top view and you could see all the bar graph values returned to normal like the other cylinders .Job done .

So today’s electrotwackery is a double edged sword .
On one hand because everything has a sensor theses days a x % movement out of the range triggers an alarm , on the other crucially the system via a screen should inter act with the operator and tell him , point him in the right direction .

I guess it depends on how it’s set up , ie how much the manufacturers are prepared to tell the operator/ owner , via the on board dash screens and what proportion of info they hold back for only access by authorised service teams in the field ?


In this particular issue , the Ops a cranking with no firing up the dash screen ought to indicate something.They could !
Thats the point .
 
vas said:
hence first call is fuel. However, if OP has a common tank on his boat for both engines, it's going to be difficult to justify fuel bug on one engine, other being fine.
OTOH, if there are two separate fuel systems with no balancing pipes (or with closed balance cocks) that's definitely the first to look at
Click to expand...
Single fuel tank but with separate filters for each engine.
 
Corona Mia said:
We had a similar problem last year……..which turned out to be fuel contamination.
No idea where it came from!
Engines 2x D3 220 with around 150hrs. Fortunately both the high pressure fuel pumps were ‘serviceable’.
But the injectors couldn’t be saved and had to be replaced.……all 10 of them!?
I think they were Bosch parts……at around half the price of the ones in a VP box?
Oh…..and then we had to take the fuel tank out to clean out a sticky varnish like residue!?
Click to expand...
That is very interesting but I have some other questions if you are able to help me more.
How long had you left your boat without running the engines? Also what were the costs of the injectors and also the Bosch numbers if you have those handy?
Did you have your high pressure pumps serviced or were they OK as they were?
Also did you have any faults come up on either engine or did your two engines just crank with no signs of life and no fault codes?
I don't think I have a fuel problem but I have not looked in the tank, I have only checked the tank filters and engine fuel filters. Any idea what caused the damage to your injectors, was it water or particles in the diesel fuel? Many thanks.
 
Portofino said:
Sometimes they get a bit of crap on the end some metal fillings or what ever which obscures them .A clean up and off you go .
So it’s not not sending info ie unplugged or shorted to GND which may trigger a code it’d just not sending quite enough info for the ECU to trigger voltage to the electronic injectors .

Generically they are either located on the bell housing looking at the flywheel or alternatively nowadays with ever sophisticated motors stuffed with electrotwackery on the rocker box area looking at a cam shaft(s);, measuring that or there’s two one on the end of each cam shaft just before the timing wheels .
They are looking at the variable timing as well it it got that ?

But as said ECU needs to see a certain rotation speed before it turns the fuel on , ie triggers the injectors .
Click to expand...
It would be nice to think this was the problem but I will need to find out where the sensor is located on the D3 200. Many thanks.
 
Portofino said:
Also the Op reports zero codes .
CR injectors are indeed uber sensitive to fuel quality , water contamination in particular as it separates into hydrogen and the destroying the tips in the excess heat .
To that end even VP I would imagine fit suitable sensors and alarms to protect the injectors …….and via the “ screen “ inform the operator ie throw a code ? Surely?

Op informs us fuel has been drained off and appears ok visually .

@ Corona mia did you get any warning / codes re the bad fuel ? You said “ similiar “ how similar cranking with no firing and zero dash codes / alarms ?


Just seems odd in today’s world of multiple sensor electrotwackery ECU controlled engines with a screen , the Op gets zilch feed back .

The only issue I have had with 2003 era none CR but stuffed with electrotwackery, a sensor on every thing MAN s is a “ Overload “ alarm .
I went out in 2020 middle of Covid etc props filthy after boat stud months in a marina .
Normally I ease up the speed and sit it low twenties to scrub the fouling , spin it off the props .
But at a lower say iirc 22 knots the stb motor overload alarm went off and it went into limp mode ( up to 1200 rpm )
The screen flash “ overload “ and various red LEDs light up .

After clearing the fault which you can do on the screen and a restart my idea it was ok up to 100 % load disarmed the 1200 limiter but repeated as soon as it got close to 100 % .
Other engine was fine just kept running .
I anchored dived in and manually scrubbed the stern gear .
All was well but the screen now displayed “ load sensor error “ and alarmed at every start , which I just cleared off .

No show stopper but via the screen i felt the system worked with me ,told me what’s going on .

E mailed the local to me MAN guys who returned the msg it was ok to use the boat gently and they would attend in the next few days as none urgent .
The guy arrived with a case full of adaptors + lap top .Dived into the ER opened up the remote mounted ECU box plugged in the lap top .We fired up the motor , the “ load sensor error”: alarmed off he got it up in the screen showing everything it’s resistance, voltage , impedance etc etc and then the lap top displays what it should be in a bar charts = faulty sensor on cylinder 1 .
Took all of 15 mins .
He then went down in the ER ( his lap top was on the cockpit tabke connected via a long unbiblical ) to fiddle with the wiring in case of a pull and took a multi meter to manually test it .

A few days later returned with a new cylinder 1 whole injector as the sensor is Integral and replaced the duff one .Then repeated the lap top view and you could see all the bar graph values returned to normal like the other cylinders .Job done .

So today’s electrotwackery is a double edged sword .
On one hand because everything has a sensor theses days a x % movement out of the range triggers an alarm , on the other crucially the system via a screen should inter act with the operator and tell him , point him in the right direction .

I guess it depends on how it’s set up , ie how much the manufacturers are prepared to tell the operator/ owner , via the on board dash screens and what proportion of info they hold back for only access by authorised service teams in the field ?


In this particular issue , the Ops a cranking with no firing up the dash screen ought to indicate something.They could !
Thats the point .
Click to expand...
Hi Porto.

The engines turned over fine……but just refused to ‘fire’. Both engines hadn’t been run for several weeks.

No alarms or fault codes came up on the helm instruments.
We didn’t have access to a Vodia because the only VP dealer is over on the Big Ilsand.

Whatever got into the fuel happily passed through the filters (both sets) without leaving any residue.
John
 
Corona Mia said:
Hi Porto.

The engines turned over fine……but just refused to ‘fire’. Both engines hadn’t been run for several weeks.

No alarms or fault codes came up on the helm instruments.
We didn’t have access to a Vodia because the only VP dealer is over on the Big Ilsand.

Whatever got into the fuel happily passed through the filters (both sets) without leaving any residue.
John
Click to expand...
Oh dear that does sound familiar. Looks as if I must start saving for what sounds to be a bit of an expensive issue if it is indeed contaminated fuel.
 
Doc Holiday said:
Oh dear that does sound familiar. Looks as if I must start saving for what sounds to be a bit of an expensive issue if it is indeed contaminated fuel.
Click to expand...
Honestly, everything above is pure speculation. I had an engine that wouldn't start and it was down to a loose connection.

If the fuel is contaminated you'd see it when you drain off a sample and the filters would be clogged. Plus it would be affecting both engines.

Just get the VP people to plug in their Vodia and they'll tell you immediately what the issue is.

For what it's worth, I would recommend that you get someone to visit the both regularly (at least monthly) to check that everything is ok. Ideally, someone who can give the boat a run to keep everything in good working order. There's nothing worse for a boat than to leave it for months without use. And it's equally frustrating to be waiting for a mechanic to arrive and fix the thing (which could involve a wait for parts) when you get out there for a holiday.
 
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Reactions: vas
petem said:
Honestly, everything above is pure speculation. I had an engine that wouldn't start and it was down to a loose connection.

If the fuel is contaminated you'd see it when you drain off a sample and the filters would be clogged. Plus it would be affecting both engines.

Just get the VP people to plug in their Vodia and they'll tell you immediately what the issue is.

For what it's worth, I would recommend that you get someone to visit the both regularly (at least monthly) to check that everything is ok. Ideally, someone who can give the boat a run to keep everything in good working order. There's nothing worse for a boat than to leave it for months without use. And it's equally frustrating to be waiting for a mechanic to arrive and fix the thing (which could involve a wait for parts) when you get out there for a holiday.
Click to expand...
Normally I would check the boat every 6-8 weeks but the pandemic has stopped us travelling regularly. I might well ask around for someone trustworthy for next year.
 
Doc Holiday said:
That is very interesting but I have some other questions if you are able to help me more.
How long had you left your boat without running the engines? Also what were the costs of the injectors and also the Bosch numbers if you have those handy?
Did you have your high pressure pumps serviced or were they OK as they were?
Also did you have any faults come up on either engine or did your two engines just crank with no signs of life and no fault codes?
I don't think I have a fuel problem but I have not looked in the tank, I have only checked the tank filters and engine fuel filters. Any idea what caused the damage to your injectors, was it water or particles in the diesel fuel? Many thanks.
Click to expand...
Hi Doc…..apologies for the late reply but my engineer is away and I had to look for the invoices!?

I’m sure you’ve seen my earlier reply to Porto……but the engines hadn’t run for several weeks, and no fault codes or alarms showed on the helm station instruments.

Afraid I don’t have the Bosch injector numbers to hand……but I was told they were the same ones as VP use.
The only difference was they didn’t come in a VP box and were cheaper.
They still cost €3835 (for 10) though……and it cost an extra €170 to have them ‘programmed’ to the ECU’s.

We first sent the old ones off to a specialist to see if they could be saved…..but without success!?
Fortunately both the high pressure fuel pumps were successfully serviced.….as these make injectors seem cheap!

We decided to remove the fuel tank for a thorough clean, to make sure it wouldn’t happen again.
And had to dispose of about 250l of diesel……which I expect ended up in someone’s old truck!?

Wish you luck…..and hopefully it’s something easier/cheaper to fix on your boat.
John
 
Staggered that “ no residue was found “ with Corona Mia “ s issue with fuel .

As I keep saying CR injectors are uber delicate and manufacturers should and i suspect VP fit Water In Fuel alarms .WIF s
= a dash code / light / buzzer etc .
Also while at it at drawing board / design room stage take a leaf out automotive sensor tech .Not exactly difficult to buy of off the shelf sensors by Bosch , denso + many others to bolt on.

Take theses found on your average German car .

1- Either use a laser like in a CD player shine through and record the dim ness.Set parameters to trigger alarm .= darker fuel bug alarms, or any contamination what ever ?

2- Or electrodes to measure resistance of the fluid be it oil or fuel .As water concentration inc set the parameters to trigger alarm = WIF detectors ……seeing as water the hydrogen kills the injector tips instantly .

.3- Or measure temperature.Yes the temp of said fluid at the start up then using a algorithm the temp rise time curve = if it falls out the said fluid is contaminated .

There is probably more sensor tech as well .

The bug blocks filters it’s there job .
Apart from water which would trigger the WIF s and this is a twin engine single tank I would be surprised if its fuel from the info given .The Ops been quite precise in his details .
 
Last edited:
Corona Mia said:
Hi Doc…..apologies for the late reply but my engineer is away and I had to look for the invoices!?

I’m sure you’ve seen my earlier reply to Porto……but the engines hadn’t run for several weeks, and no fault codes or alarms showed on the helm station instruments.

Afraid I don’t have the Bosch injector numbers to hand……but I was told they were the same ones as VP use.
The only difference was they didn’t come in a VP box and were cheaper.
They still cost €3835 (for 10) though……and it cost an extra €170 to have them ‘programmed’ to the ECU’s.

We first sent the old ones off to a specialist to see if they could be saved…..but without success!?
Fortunately both the high pressure fuel pumps were successfully serviced.….as these make injectors seem cheap!

We decided to remove the fuel tank for a thorough clean, to make sure it wouldn’t happen again.
And had to dispose of about 250l of diesel……which I expect ended up in someone’s old truck!?

Wish you luck…..and hopefully it’s something easier/cheaper to fix on your boat.
John
Click to expand...
 
That sounds to be an awful experience. I know I have changed diesel fuel feed pumps in the past which cost circa £100 direct from Bosch but €375 when purchased from Volvo Penta. Did your motors try to start or did they just sound dead? Also, did you find anything in the fuel tank such as sediment or water? This sounds to be a very scary and expensive experience. I really do hope I have not got the same problem.
 
Doc Holiday said:
I left my boat in the South of France at the end of July 2021 with both D3 22 engines running and starting very easily. They have both completed circa 180 hours of starting and running perfectly, but on returning to the marina in France at the start of October 2021, the port engine would crank but would not start. No fault codes were displayed and fuel flow could be monitored on the 2 1/2 Volvo penta instrument while cranking. Battery level does not seem to be the problem as it turned over very quickly and even with the emergency parallel battery mode engaged it would not start. The enginse have new air filters (the vanes of the turbo turn easily), the main fuel supply has new separate filters to both engines, and the engine fuel filter has no sign of water or contamination in it after draining the filter to examine the fuel. I made an arrangement for a local Volvo Penta dealer to visit at 08:00 on the Monday before I left. I turned up but the dealer declared at the last minute that he was too busy and could not test the engine with his Vodia laptop. I will not be back until January 2022 but would like any pointers at what I could look at and what could be wrong. I have swopped the main relays mounted on the engine with those of the starboard side and there was no change. The engine fuse was not blown and the circuit breaker was not activated. I could also press the fuel primer and hear the fuel pump feeding the engine filter. I hope it is something simple but I just don't know where to look anymore, any suggestions welcome.
Click to expand...

***UPDATE***
I have recently returned from visiting my boat in the South of France. Before the Volvo Penta man arrived I decided to check the engines again (D3-200) and was able to start the starboard started OK but the port engine still refused to start. I decided to check the fuel filter to check for water and found nothing came out of the filter when I tried to remove the sensor at the bottom of the filter. It also felt strange in that I could not seem to retighten it. So I removed the filter and found the inside of the filter to have water as well as fuel and the water sensor had rusted onto the fuel filter. So I changed the filter and sensor hoping that it would now start. I also discovered that the manual over ride on the electrically controlled fuel valve to the port engine had been left open.

I then drained several gallons of disel to check if water was present but it looked clear and there was no sign of water. I replaced the diesel with several gallons of high quality road car diesel from a garage.

I tried starting the port engine again but it did not start. I assumed that the water sensor did not send a warning to the Volvo Penta instruments because it had become non functional. So I waited for the Volvo Penta technician and his Vodia to eventually arrive.

He spend several hours going through all manner of tests (low pressure fuel pressure was at 5 Bar) and swapping items including the relays and MPROP valve. These made no difference and the engine still did not start and as far as I could tell it did not even fire?

His conclusion was that that the High Pressure Fuel Pump had probably failed and he was going to propose to his boss that the High Pressure pump, fuel pipes and injectors were serviced. However it is now over 2 weeks and I have not received any further communication re costs and time estimates.

So I am now thinking of removing the high pressure pump myself (I have the workshop manual and also the document indicating all the part numbers for the D3-200 engine) and taking it to a local Bosch dealer to check it or even bring it back to the UK for checking, servicing or exchanging.

Reading the workshop manual on page 109 it states that all fuel delivery pipes must be replaced once removed. Is there a reason for this and is it essential as it seems rather wasteful. Also does that refer to only the 2 delivery pipes between high pressure pump and the common rail? HELP - I am at my wits end!
 
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