pointing ability - what affects it?

[jason -and the arguenauts]

My boat should point well, at least according to the tests at the time it was introduced. "Tack though 80 degrees" for example.

But the race yesterday showed pointing ability much the same as a good bilge keeler. So what's wrong with the boat set up?

Mast rake and bend are correct and the rigger thinks I have the tersnions OK. Sails are good, relatively new and in decent condition.

Any other things to look at?

 

[NickiCrutchfield]

Cunningham, outhaul, main sheet, traveller, halyard tension and jib sheet lead spring to mind.

 

[michael_w]

Hull shape, rig set up, crew skill factor, sail shape, sea state. Not necessarily in that order.

 

[sarabande]

it sounds as if the sail(s) are in too tight if you are not pointing.

What's the speed like relative to other similar boats?

Have you checked leeway by visual inspection / trailing a long thin line and a small float ?

Is the underwater hull fair, and clean ?

Propellor in the optimum position ? Rudder not too heavily engaged ?

Any other drag factors - eg rope round keel ?

Have you got telltales on all sails at the important places ? Are you using them ?

I'd try to get the boat footing freely and then play with one item at a time, logging the difference it makes.

The old adage "If you don't measure, you can't manage" applies to racing as much as to business. Keep records.

 

[bbg]

Heel. Did you have anyone sitting on the rail, or were the crew in the cockpit? You should have them sitting on the rail if you can.
Sail shape. Just because the sails are new does not mean they are setting well. Check the lead for the jib car, traveller, cunningham, outhaul, sheet tension (twist). Sometimes moving the traveller up a bit can make a big difference to pointing - but be careful not to overdo it and choke off the power.

 

[bbg]

I'd try to get the boat footing freely and then play with one item at a time, logging the difference it makes.

The old adage "If you don't measure, you can't manage" applies to racing as much as to business. Keep records.

That's the way to do it.

 

[flaming]

My boat should point well, at least according to the tests at the time it was introduced. "Tack though 80 degrees" for example.

But the race yesterday showed pointing ability much the same as a good bilge keeler. So what's wrong with the boat set up?

Mast rake and bend are correct and the rigger thinks I have the tersnions OK. Sails are good, relatively new and in decent condition.

Any other things to look at?

Tensions ok according to rigger, but Ok for what wind strength? Big difference to being Ok for 20 knots and Ok for 10.

Assuming you've got the absolute basics (clean hull, folding prop, mast straight and in the centre of the boat, even rig tension, sails that have the right shape) then forestay sag and jib halyard tension are number 1 culprits if you're talking setup. Jib sheet trim and car position are the leading contenders if it's a trim issue, closely followed by mainsail leach tension.

Then you cannot overplay the value of a good helm. Just trying to point straight out of a tack will never work, you must get the boat up to speed before trying to point or you will just go sideways.
Knowing when to foot for speed and when you can point are just some of the things that separate the competent helms from the ones with all the silverware.

 

[jimi]

I've always considered an eye for detail and a decent set of oils absolutely essential to demonstrate painting ability!

 

[lw395]

How much weather helm is there? None or lots is usually bad, a few degrees of rudder is good in many boats.
You say the rake and bend are 'right', where do these measurements come from? If its a class boat, then maybe try some two boat tuning.
There is no substitute for hours of practice, keep an eye on the speed log, if you have a digital apparent wind, try to build a picture of apparent wind v boat speed. Try to do this before each race.
Also, if you are pointing a little lower than the oppostion, do not drop into their dirty wind, that will only make it worse! Tack for clear air then tack onto a parallel course and work to keep above their line.
Allowing waves to stop the boat will also damage average pointing compared with sailing around the waves.
Keep the trimmers informed about what you are trying to do. Mark and calibrate everything so you can get back to your best setting and work from there. Then you can stop thinking about all those bits and concentrate on the tell-tales!
Think about borrowing a good/different helm for a practice session, this allows you to move around the boat, viewing things from different angles, experiment with things and understand the other jobs on the boat.
Or go to SIBS and buy a more competitive boat?

 

[geoffatstanpit]

Pointing ability

It's barnacles and that sea-lettuce stuff that clobbers my pointing ability at this point in the season - must get under with the garden hoe again!

 

[dukes4monny]

My boat should point well, at least according to the tests at the time it was introduced. "Tack though 80 degrees" for example.

But the race yesterday showed pointing ability much the same as a good bilge keeler. So what's wrong with the boat set up?

Mast rake and bend are correct and the rigger thinks I have the tersnions OK. Sails are good, relatively new and in decent condition.

Any other things to look at?

A lot of the previous advice is very good, but I am wondering whether you may be getting confused about 'pointing ability'?
There is no real reason why a bilge keeler shouldn't be able to point as high as a fin keeler, BUT, a bilge keeler would probably have more leeway than a fin keeler.
In other words, if you started off sailing on a beat side by side with a bilge keeler, you would probably point at the same relative angle, but the bilge keeler would gradually fall away due to leeway.

 

[srm]

"Tack though 80 degrees"

Could be journalists shorthand for "thank you very much for your generous hospitality"

Unfortunately, you do not say what type / model as other forumites may well be able to confirm your experience as fairly normal.

Personally, have always thought that mag sail tests present boat performance (especially tacking angles) in the best possible light rather than give figures that could be attained by ordinary mortals. Perhaps the guys doing the tests just have so much more experience at sailing all sorts of boats that they intuitively get the best out of it. Also, the seller is usually going to have new sails and set the boat up as well as possible (and when not so the journalists make appologies and say we would expect better when x or y is done). After all the whole financial purpose of the mag is to sell advertisers their readers.

 

[PeterGibbs]

My boat should point well, at least according to the tests at the time it was introduced. "Tack though 80 degrees" for example.

But the race yesterday showed pointing ability much the same as a good bilge keeler. So what's wrong with the boat set up?

Mast rake and bend are correct and the rigger thinks I have the tersnions OK. Sails are good, relatively new and in decent condition.

Any other things to look at?

I'll lay a 5p bet that you are experiencing drag from too much foresail. I often wonder at skippers sailing to wind with large genoas all strapped down - more sail the better! No - a source of significant drag for no gain in forward drive. A 100% high cut jib will do more for most boats to windward than loads of canvas, especially if low cut and scooping up waves!

PWG

 

[lw395]

I'll lay a 5p bet that you are experiencing drag from too much foresail. I often wonder at skippers sailing to wind with large genoas all strapped down - more sail the better! No - a source of significant drag for no gain in forward drive. A 100% high cut jib will do more for most boats to windward than loads of canvas, especially if low cut and scooping up waves!

PWG

There is a bit of truth in this, but provided the rig is balanced, a large overlapping No1 will be more effective upwind than a jib, blade or whatever. At least until it's quite windy They are quite heavily penalised under IRC but the vast majority of racing yachts have a 130% + genoa and find it pays to windward.
Not saying it's true for ALL boats of course.
My favourite foresail on the 395 was the No3, about 100% but low to the deck. Sheeted inside the shrouds, the boat would point high and fast, but in less than about 15kts true the No2 was faster and pointed as well.
YMMV, there are a lot of variables and it takes more time than I had to experiment and get the best out of everything.

Another suggestion for the OP is to get some photo's taken from a RIB, with known settings, from astern to look at the leaches and from upwind. These pix can be usefully discussed with a sailmaker.
Some clubs have run races where a coach takes such photos of every boat and discusses afterwards.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

A lot of the previous advice is very good, but I am wondering whether you may be getting confused about 'pointing ability'?
There is no real reason why a bilge keeler shouldn't be able to point as high as a fin keeler, BUT, a bilge keeler would probably have more leeway than a fin keeler.

Sadly not. I was in the middle of the bilgies on the first beat when all the fins were going away maybe 10 deg maybe 5 deg further into the wind.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Some are quite possible culprits, some are not. The boat is a Starlight 35 fin keel (1.8m), and the bottom is clean and fair with a folding prop. There was about 15/20 deg of wheel on going upwind which translates into about 5/10 deg of rudder. The boat was well heeled under reduced sail (both genoa and main) - more of a reduction than most other boats and since it isnt a tender type, my guess is that we were getting too much heeling force and not enough forward force.

From what people have said, slack forestay might be involved but I couldnt check at the time. Genoa cars werent adjusted for the reef because there are no telltales visible when reefed. Certainly we went better when we unrolled all the foresail but still didnt point too good.

Flaming - what do you mean about leach tension on the main? We moved the mainsheet car up the track to get the boom along the centre line and adjusted the main sheet to get the leach tell tails flying.

 

[Refueler]

I'll lay a 5p bet that you are experiencing drag from too much foresail. I often wonder at skippers sailing to wind with large genoas all strapped down - more sail the better! No - a source of significant drag for no gain in forward drive. A 100% high cut jib will do more for most boats to windward than loads of canvas, especially if low cut and scooping up waves!

PWG

Very true ... for years I've carried max canvas forward on my old tub of a boat ... thinking I need itr to get her moving. This summer I had to roll in about 1/3rd of the genny ... boy she flew ! I was amazed. The sail sheeted in better, the slot with the mainsail was far better with main leading part not fluttering as it usually did with full genny out ....

My boats no way anywhere near a race boat ... it's a motor sailer - but PWG's post is spot on that I experienced.

 

[fantasia7628]

Maybe: try a bit more kicker to increase leach tension and ease the mainsheet a bit to reduce heel; a bit more weight on the rail and feather her up to windward to keep her upright - not too much though, or you might loose drive, adjust the genoa car to open the leach slightly? Just my dinghy dailing twopenny worth.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

Thats a thought. I only normally use the kicker to keep the boom down when running. But then how does what you suggest differ bfroim using the track to open the leach and the sheet to keep the tension you want?

 

[flaming]

There is a bit of truth in this, but provided the rig is balanced, a large overlapping No1 will be more effective upwind than a jib, blade or whatever. At least until it's quite windy They are quite heavily penalised under IRC but the vast majority of racing yachts have a 130% + genoa and find it pays to windward.

Starting to get somewhat off topic.... But I'm afraid this is out of date. I can't think of a cruiser racer, or dedicated race boat, launched since 2004 with an overlapping headsail. IRC really hates them. On the Elan we're in the process of getting rid of them, as we think the rating hit is just not worth it, especially as the design of smaller jibs has improved so drastically as to be able to get a lot of power out of them, especially with a barber-hauler. In fact we think we will have the same speed as before in over 10 knots, certainly in over 12, and easily good enough to sail to a rating 15 points lower in over 8. And since racing generally doesn't start until there's a reliable 6 knots that leaves a 2 knot hole where we might still wish for a big genoa. And we were never really competitive under 10 knots anyway....

The equation might start to turn back in favour of the big headsails on a masthead rig, I don't have much experience with them under IRC, but certainly with a fractional rig the Genoa is rapidly becoming history.