Plotter: at wheel or chart table?

[haydude]

Or both?
Its decision time, with new boat with wheel steering coming up. I am used to tiller steering and plotters etc below at the chart table. A multiscreen plotter at the wheel is the fashionable solution, but one I am not used to. At the wheel sounds good for Scottish rock hopping, but standing "outdoors" passage planning not so good. So maybe 2 plotters, or a PC below. Opinions welcome, please.

At first I absolutely wanted the plotter at the wheel, but at the time both cost (£350 for a plastic case!!!) and further complicated wiring dictated for an installation at the chart desk.

After which I realized that:

- I hardly ever sit at the helm, using the autopilot most of the time
- the helm is well aft and even looking at the ST60 instruments on the pod is inconvenient
- I can spend hours planning at the chart desk whilst it is cold outside
- I can see the chartplotter very well from the companionway

And now I am grateful it was too expensive to install at the helm in the first place.

If you want to keep your options open, then go for a Raymarine E Series at the chart desk that allows for a repeater display at the helm should you feel you really need one, one day.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Dunno whether this gonna work coz the boat is still ashore, but I've put a small Garmin at the helm on a tilt and swivel mount so it can be seen whether from behind the wheel, or on the coaming. As well as pretty pix, it can also display good stuff like VMG.

Below, a Yeoman plotter which is NMEA linked to the Garmin, so that waypoints entered on the Yeoman SHOULD automatically transfer to the Garmin.

Fingers x'd it'll work as advertised.

 

[HoratioHB]

What I don't like about the idea of having a plotter in front of the wheel is what it can do to your night vision. For me, when at the helm being able to see is far more important than knowing where I am to the exact foot, even more so at night, when you're looking out for black shapes against a black sea and sky. I know you can dim the screens, but it's still going to have an effect.

The other issue I can see with plotters at the wheel is causing people to take the rhumb line between two points instead of using a course to steer that takes into account tides and other conditions. So again, I'd rather steer to a compass than to a computer screen that is constantly twitching left, right and centre, which will cause inexperienced helmsmen to overcorrect.

Then you get people who think they know best, because of what they see in front of their eyes and start deciding which direction they're going to steer instead of steering the course given.

So I'd keep it at the chart table. If the person at the helm complains that they want to know more about what's going on, either tell them to shut up and steer the course given, or relieve them for five minutes so they can dip below and make their own assessments.

As for night vision - as you say, you turn down the brghtness!! I've often used them at night with no problem.

You can have a plethora of display options but if using an autopilot the plotter uses cross track error to maintain a track or you can set it to sail on a relative wind angle. Whatever you use it will not cause the helmsman to overcorrect. My preferenc was to have the cross track error displayed as well as the ships track as a line on the screen (so I knew where I was going rather than pointing) but there are an ifinite variety of options.

Its fine if the helmsman skipper/navigator are seperate people but in my case they were not! Imagine coming into a new port with loads of buoys about and having to identify new landmarks as well as drive the boat. No contest.

No disrespect but you write like someone who has never used one but seems to have plenty of objections nonetheless.

 

[Sans Bateau]

At the wheel you should have a plotter displaying not only a chart but AIS and radar, at the wheel and no where else, that is because its when you are at the wheel you will be making pilotage, close quarters (AIS) and poor weather (radar) decisions. It is no point in having that information at the chart table relaying the info to the helm. Like driving with a blindfold.

At the chart table, as the name implies, you need charts, a Yeoman plotter mixes traditional navigation with electronics and all you passage planning can be done in comfort. TK's idea of loading waypoints to the plotter should work, I load waypoints from my Yeoman to the Garmin 152 that drives it. This way you have two separate systems.

The second paragraph should be ignored if you have just bought a HR 310.

 

[Quandary]

At the wheel you should have a plotter displaying not only a chart but AIS and radar, at the wheel and no where else, that is because its when you are at the wheel you will be making pilotage, close quarters (AIS) and poor weather (radar) decisions. It is no point in having that information at the chart table relaying the info to the helm. Like driving with a blindfold..

Old yachties like me drove with a blindfold for years, then someone invented Decca for yachts, and put it over the chart table. If you have navigated using a compass, with occasional attempts at finding a null on an rdf it is not to difficult to find your way about without constant reference to plotters, most yachts only go at 6 or 7 knots and I can still run faster than that without hitting anything.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Old yachties like me drove with a blindfold for years, then someone invented Decca for yachts, and put it over the chart table. If you have navigated using a compass, with occasional attempts at finding a null on an rdf it is not to difficult to find your way about without constant reference to plotters, most yachts only go at 6 or 7 knots and I can still run faster than that without hitting anything.

Hear! Hear!

 

[snooks]

I decided to fit ours in the cockpit (there was a feature about why I fitted it where I did in the Feb issue of YM)

Why I fitted it outside evolved on two separate occasions, once when we were approaching the top of the Little Russel off Guernsey, the headsail furling rope jammed and I needed to know what direction it was safe to head off in, my partner Kirsty was doing the navigation that day, and I was merrily sailing along when the breeze got up. While I was on the Bow, Kirsty was on the helm but couldn’t refer to the chart below.

Secondly when we were crossing the channel in fog, every few minutes we had to pop our head below to check the AIS plotter. Not a problem with shipping travelling at 15 knots, but when a fast cat appeared soon after our last peek, 5 minutes before, travelling at 35 knots it was already 3 miles closer to us than it could have been when we first could have spotted it.

On both occasions if the chartplotter was on deck, the knowledge we needed would just have been a glance away, not tucked safely down below missing all the action.

That's why I chose to mount mine outside, but the choice is yours.

It depends on who you sail with: single handed, just the two of you, fully crewed etc. Where you sail: long distance, cross channel or coastal. And how you navigate: paper or electronic or both and how thorough you are about navigation.

No one answer is right, you just have to find the position that ticks the most boxes for you...or buy two!

 

[Elessar]

What I don't like about the idea of having a plotter in front of the wheel is what it can do to your night vision. For me, when at the helm being able to see is far more important than knowing where I am to the exact foot, even more so at night, when you're looking out for black shapes against a black sea and sky. I know you can dim the screens, but it's still going to have an effect.

The other issue I can see with plotters at the wheel is causing people to take the rhumb line between two points instead of using a course to steer that takes into account tides and other conditions. So again, I'd rather steer to a compass than to a computer screen that is constantly twitching left, right and centre, which will cause inexperienced helmsmen to overcorrect.

Then you get people who think they know best, because of what they see in front of their eyes and start deciding which direction they're going to steer instead of steering the course given.

So I'd keep it at the chart table. If the person at the helm complains that they want to know more about what's going on, either tell them to shut up and steer the course given, or relieve them for five minutes so they can dip below and make their own assessments.

Good points well made - though I disagree with your conclusion. A PC is all you need at the chart table - or for me with no chart table, the saloon table. At night I dim the plotter and leave it covered. If I need to look at it I shut 1 eye before i lift the cover for a glance. Still quicker than going below. The same can be done if you have mr stupid at the helm, cover it up.

 

[Elessar]

At the wheel you should have a plotter displaying not only a chart but AIS and radar, at the wheel and no where else, that is because its when you are at the wheel you will be making pilotage, close quarters (AIS) and poor weather (radar) decisions. It is no point in having that information at the chart table relaying the info to the helm. Like driving with a blindfold.

At the chart table, as the name implies, you need charts, a Yeoman plotter mixes traditional navigation with electronics and all you passage planning can be done in comfort. TK's idea of loading waypoints to the plotter should work, I load waypoints from my Yeoman to the Garmin 152 that drives it. This way you have two separate systems.

I'm rather glad we agree on navigation at the helm

You will have to show me how to use Yeoman though, I've never used one.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Old yachties like me drove with a blindfold for years, then someone invented Decca for yachts, and put it over the chart table. If you have navigated using a compass, with occasional attempts at finding a null on an rdf it is not to difficult to find your way about without constant reference to plotters, most yachts only go at 6 or 7 knots and I can still run faster than that without hitting anything.

I used to play 45rpm records on a radiogram as a youngster. Nowhere near as good as my ipod, its progress guys.

 

[Mrnotming]

2 plotter bases for 1 plotter.

Hi Biscuit, & ors,
My Lorenz Sun Colour plotter is still good enough for cockpit use.I ordered two bases for it, one below and one mobile mount on a wander lead in the cockpit.This
accomodates the idea that little time is actually spent behind the wheel in filthy weather as mentioned by another.So one does not have to continually get around behind the wheel to look at the screen.The cockpit base is mounted on a small polyethelene bread board to have something to rig a bungee through if motion is exciting.When it is not necessary to shelter under the sprayhood it mounts on the binnacle.
So it can be programmed alongside the PC nave station and then brought up on deck.(gps integral to plotter).Sort of ad-hoc solution but still has merits.

good sailing and boating to all.

 

[HoratioHB]

Old yachties like me drove with a blindfold for years, then someone invented Decca for yachts, and put it over the chart table. If you have navigated using a compass, with occasional attempts at finding a null on an rdf it is not to difficult to find your way about without constant reference to plotters, most yachts only go at 6 or 7 knots and I can still run faster than that without hitting anything.

Me also, I was brought up in the days of EP and faith, which then became lat and long with Decca and then GPs. I am totally at home with any system (I even teach them). BUT give me a colour picture that tells me exactly where I am on a chart (without having to plot a position or take a fix), where I am going, what the tide is really doing to me etc etc, then I thinks its great - why make life difficult when it can be easy?? I know systems can fail but there again I have no problem reverting to older systems its just more time consuming and less accurate and therefore probably not quite as safe.
Remember those great big flying things that take us on holiday all work on 'chatrplotter' technology. The days of fixing yourself with a sextant in an aeroplane are long gone.................

Sorry, sort of thread drift but what the ....

 

[Ubergeekian]

BUT give me a colour picture that tells me exactly where I am on a chart (without having to plot a position or take a fix), where I am going, what the tide is really doing to me etc etc, then I thinks its great - why make life difficult when it can be easy??

To me that just sounds b-o-o-o-o-ring. Others may, of course, have a different view and they are very welcome to it.

 

[HoratioHB]

To me that just sounds b-o-o-o-o-ring. Others may, of course, have a different view and they are very welcome to it.

Nah not for me it aint, gives me more time to watch the Dolphins, catch fish, turn the stereo up loud, drink beer (in modertaion of course) and generally laze about.

 

[CliveG]

Ours is on a swing out bracket by the companion way.
It can be swung out to be viewed in the cockpit and swiveled to face the side that the helm is sitting or swung into the cabin to allow for plotting and for security.

This is the mount but with a previous plotter on it (Now drowned)

The only issue is that one has to stand up or sit on an uncomfortable companionway step to do the plotting.
Mind you we are on a tiller steered 25'er and can't really afford 2 plotters.

 

[dunedin]

So a key differentiator here is those who have plenty of staff (sorry crew) such that helm and navigator are separate roles, versus those of us who often sail short staffed (ie solo)

Boat came with Raymarine linked plotters at table and helm - but the linkage died. So now have chart at helm (for Scottish rock hopping as noted) and GPS plus paper charts at table.

 

[Richard10002]

I have, (had?), a removable Lowrance on a swivel at the wheel, so it could be seen whilst at the wheel during pilotage, or whilst sitting in front of the wheel, on passage.

Also had a facility to fit the same plotter at the chart table for planning. Never used it at the chart table. Put the routes in at the wheel, and off we went..... not rocket science.

The answer to the OP question is a no brainer..... in the cockpit, ideally fitted such that it can be seen from behind, and in front of, the wheel!!

 

[prv]

I've put a small Garmin at the helm on a tilt and swivel mount so it can be seen whether from behind the wheel, or on the coaming. As well as pretty pix, it can also display good stuff like VMG.

Below, a Yeoman plotter which is NMEA linked to the Garmin, so that waypoints entered on the Yeoman SHOULD automatically transfer to the Garmin.

Sounds pretty much exactly what I plan to put in KS!

Once I get round to it, that is, which probably won't be this season. Don't really need all that stuff pottering round the Solent getting to know the boat - will probably get new sails before I expand on the ancient log+depth and GPS12 that's currently fitted.

Pete

 

[Woodlouse]

As for night vision - as you say, you turn down the brghtness!! I've often used them at night with no problem.

You can have a plethora of display options but if using an autopilot the plotter uses cross track error to maintain a track or you can set it to sail on a relative wind angle. Whatever you use it will not cause the helmsman to overcorrect. My preferenc was to have the cross track error displayed as well as the ships track as a line on the screen (so I knew where I was going rather than pointing) but there are an ifinite variety of options.

Its fine if the helmsman skipper/navigator are seperate people but in my case they were not! Imagine coming into a new port with loads of buoys about and having to identify new landmarks as well as drive the boat. No contest.

No disrespect but you write like someone who has never used one but seems to have plenty of objections nonetheless.

I'm afraid that I have sailed with plotters in the cockpit, so I stand by my opinions. My objections stem from problems I have already encountered, and problems that already exist, even without a computer screen to further fuel it.

Using a XTE has exactly the same implications as following a line on a plotter. It will still cause an inexperienced helmsman to steer in zigzags as they try to follow an exact line. With all the technology, when it comes to hand steering, a compass is still the best thing to follow.

As for pilotage. If you are being every role on board (e.g. single handed) then that is where a good pilotage plan comes in. Otherwise, all you need is someone on the helm, who does as their told, while you sit in the companion way with the almanac and a hand bearing compass. A screen in front of you does make it a lot easier, but it can also make you complacent and can distract you from your surroundings. The last tricky pilotage I made, just happened to be a busy fishing port. Having a TV screen to watch your route into a harbour isn't great when you're in a french fishery version of the whacky races. You should always know your way into a strange port before you get there, even with a helm plotter.

In the mean time, I bid you, on a dark night, sit in the cockpit for half an hour and look about you. Then look into your dimmed chartplotter for a minute, then look about you again. I think you'll see a difference.

 

[Dockhead]

Another vote for helm, and exactly at the helm and not elsewhere in the cockpit. That is for spatial awareness and orientation of the helmsman, which seems to me a priority. When doing pilotage, the helmsman may need to manipulate scale or other controls (or EBL or VRM of his radar, if fitted), and having the plotter at the companionway will not be of much use in that case. Practically speaking, even when not shorthanded, these days, the helmsman himself is usually doing the navigation and pilotage, and not just steering port and starboard to the commands of someone below as in days of old, so he needs to know where he is.

We have an RL70 at the helm and an RL80 below at the chart table. It's nice to have both stations (especially for radar as someone mentioned), but if you can only have one, then -- helm, IMHO. At the chart table you have many other options, like a laptop or just paper charts.