Pirates take another Brit Yacht......

[Sybaris]

Reply to Clarky, Cliffordpope, and others

The government is "damned if I do, damned if I don't". I don't understand this total disregard of the government and authorities. They are apparently spineless wnakers, always make the wrong decisions, and only idiots vote them in. The alternative is anarchy as in Somalia, or to let the army free (because they know so much better and are tough and cool and don't take any c*ap) as in a a military dictatorship. Democracy is not perfect but it sure beats any of the alternatives.

cliffordpope: It is apparently completely acceptable to deliberately cause deaths of innocent people in the interests of securing a greater benefit. It is a mystery therefore why there is the squeamishness at blasting a probable pirate ship out of the water.

I don't think that the general consensus is that it is completely acceptable to deliberately kill innocent people. The Iraq, Afghani, and Serbian wars are still very controversial, the Iraq war is currently being investigated. I agree that Saddam Hussein was a despot who was responsible for thousand of deaths, but in the Somali case there have still not been one single reported death by the pirates. I am not therefore condoning the pirates in any way, I am just saying that equal measures cannot be used in two totally unrelated situations.

clarky: I am amazed that a small skiff can stay at sea for weeks,do Somalis not drink or eat .I dont think you have really thought about what you are saying before typing.

I have thought about it, and as I say I am stating real facts. Here it goes again. Fishing skiffs are found all over the northern Indian Ocean far from land and they stay out for weeks. Many sailors can tell you this, and trade is often done with fish for water. The pirates may go back to land or their mother ships regularly, but many fishing skiffs don't in many cases.
You mention you have seen skiffs with 5 or 6 men drinking 3 liters a day. Where did you see them, and did you ask them how much they drink?
Also, why don't you want to go into your source regarding tracking here, it would be most useful and enlightening for this discussion.

The article in Daily Mail seems to have confused the real facts, and many forum entries now seem to believe that the army was there when the yacht was being seized and boarded. However, if you look at the drawing in the article even the Daily Mail cannot deny the fact that the yacht was seized several days before the army was there, and this is in line with other news reports.

Many writers take the aggressive and oversimplified position that it is simply a case of going out and shooting all pirates and the problem will be gone. Well you cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that there are thousands of fishing skiffs and other legitimate boats in the Indian Ocean and to target "any boat with Somalis waving AK47's" is not so easy in such a huge area. Furthermore, I doubt that they are stupid enough to drive around and wave their guns until they are actually engaged in a piracy attack. It is akin to suggesting that we can eliminate bank robbers by picking up everyone wearing a stocking on their head.

I don't claim to know of a quick solution to the problem, but my point is that there are many competent people involved full time in this complex problem (both navy vessels and decision makers) and I think it is unfair to trow blame and dirt on them based on hearsay, unproven rumors, and exaggerated and provoking comments as found in these threads.

 

[whipper_snapper]

I have thought about it, and as I say I am stating real facts. Here it goes again. Fishing skiffs are found all over the northern Indian Ocean far from land and they stay out for weeks.

True. I have seen tiny dug out canoes over 10 miles from land with 2 people in. Their nav lights are a cigarette lighter.


I have seen 100s of 'outriggers' - completely open wooden planked boats perhaps 20' long with a single beam as an outrigger- 30 miles from shore with 2 or 3 on board.

Proper GRP skiffs with a decent outboard! These guys will go round the world in those.

People need to understand that these guys are seriously tough and seriously good sailors. They make us softy yotties look like a bunch of big girl's blouses. We were once approached by a tiny sailing outrigger in really rough conditions big squalls, huge swell and within yards of breaking water on a reef. We thought they were in trouble and were going to ask us for help; in fact they were completely in control and just wanted a chat and a laugh.

 

[fergie_mac66]

I don't claim to know of a quick solution to the problem, but my point is that there are many competent people involved full time in this complex problem (both navy vessels and decision makers) and I think it is unfair to trow blame and dirt on them based on hearsay, unproven rumors, and exaggerated and provoking comments as found in these threads.

with the number of ships and countries involved it should be possible to arrange a convoy system with the cost shared .The ships could could easily have a few military onboard and when the pirate show them selves they could be legitimately sunk they would soon get the message its not like they are wielding exocet missles .. and if somthing is not done then it wont be long before islamic yes i said islamic terrorists jump on the bandwagon !

 

[Marsupial]

with the number of ships and countries involved it should be possible to arrange a convoy system with the cost shared .The ships could could easily have a few military onboard and when the pirate show them selves they could be legitimately sunk they would soon get the message its not like they are wielding exocet missles .. and if somthing is not done then it wont be long before islamic yes i said islamic terrorists jump on the bandwagon !

see my previous posts, convoys are being used which is why we have the current problem with yachts.

 

[Sandyman]

Pirates take another Brit Yacht......

True or False ?? Any update / sit-rep ?

 

[Major Catastrophe]

It is akin to suggesting that we can eliminate bank robbers by picking up everyone wearing a stocking on their head.

Seems to be a reasonable starting point for the Flying Squad to have a look at.

I really don't want to get involved in this scrap but some posters who have mentioned the custom of Somalian fishermen taking their AK47's with them on a trip, suggest they need them for their secondary job of kidnapping a passing ship.

So, a good publicity blitz in Somalia - they still have TV and radio - telling fishermen that taking AK47's and RPG's on fishing trips will be treated as 'intent' may concentrate a few minds.

But, all this inaction is just encouraging more piracy and, mark my words, it will spread far and wide across the world as more fishermen take up the practice. After all, it is a bit of an earner with little or no risk.

 

[Wandering Star]

One solution would be to buy up all the old Bavarias, anything older than a couple of years, plus all the Macgregor 26X's - in fact any sort of boat which has a short natural lifespan and not much value, fit them with radio controlled autopilots and fill them with dynamite attached to some sort of device which detonates on impact. Make sure each boat has a "SeaMe" radar enhancer fitted and is flying a very large British ensign, then send them into any pirate risk sea areas. That'll sort them out.

Cheers, Brian.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

True. I have seen tiny dug out canoes over 10 miles from land with 2 people in. Their nav lights are a cigarette lighter.


I have seen 100s of 'outriggers' - completely open wooden planked boats perhaps 20' long with a single beam as an outrigger- 30 miles from shore with 2 or 3 on board.

Proper GRP skiffs with a decent outboard! These guys will go round the world in those.

People need to understand that these guys are seriously tough and seriously good sailors. They make us softy yotties look like a bunch of big girl's blouses. We were once approached by a tiny sailing outrigger in really rough conditions big squalls, huge swell and within yards of breaking water on a reef. We thought they were in trouble and were going to ask us for help; in fact they were completely in control and just wanted a chat and a laugh.

The Pacific was colonized by Polynesians using similar technology. In some cases that involved sailing distances of thousands of kilometres. They did it by living off the sea; fish can supply enough fluid, for example, to significantly reduce the amount of fresh-water required. Fresh-water would be re-supplied from rain as and when - and of course, they accepted a much higher risk of failure than we usually do!

 

[Marsupial]

and of course, they accepted a much higher risk of failure than we usually do!

Good so if we sink them they wont mind then?

I knew we would find an answer that was acceptable to everyone, pirate and victim in the end! Another first for the forum

 

[alant]

Can't get outboard fuel from fish

The Pacific was colonized by Polynesians using similar technology. In some cases that involved sailing distances of thousands of kilometres. They did it by living off the sea; fish can supply enough fluid, for example, to significantly reduce the amount of fresh-water required. Fresh-water would be re-supplied from rain as and when - and of course, they accepted a much higher risk of failure than we usually do!

"Proper GRP skiffs with a decent outboard! These guys will go round the world in those."

I don't think the Polynesians had outboards, which according to some of these posts, seem to have unlimited fuel range, which is obviously b-ll-cks.

They have to be operating from mother ships.
These should be easily identifiable, with AIS etc.

 

[Clarky]

Reply to Clarky, Cliffordpope, and others

The government is "damned if I do, damned if I don't". I don't understand this total disregard of the government and authorities. They are apparently spineless wnakers, always make the wrong decisions, and only idiots vote them in. The alternative is anarchy as in Somalia, or to let the army free (because they know so much better and are tough and cool and don't take any c*ap) as in a a military dictatorship. Democracy is not perfect but it sure beats any of the alternatives.



The article in Daily Mail seems to have confused the real facts, and many forum entries now seem to believe that the army was there when the yacht was being seized and boarded. However, if you look at the drawing in the article even the Daily Mail cannot deny the fact that the yacht was seized several days before the army was there, and this is in line with other news reports.



I don't claim to know of a quick solution to the problem, but my point is that there are many competent people involved full time in this complex problem (both navy vessels and decision makers) and I think it is unfair to trow blame and dirt on them based on hearsay, unproven rumors, and exaggerated and provoking comments as found in these threads.

Actually you are confused ,and you shouldnt really post if you are so confused,the Wave Front personnel,including Royal Marines, watched as the Chandlers were transferred,HMS CUMBERLAND was only 2 hours away.The reason people are annoyed is that the Wave Front could have delayed the transfer to the mothership ,it had a 30 mm cannon, helicopter,and trained personnel.The indecision by those in charge, and that would appear to be Whitehall,led to the pirates getting clean away with the hostages.They then lied about it pretending the WaveFront was not nearby,until the truth was revealed by angry crew members. The UK has a long tradition of having buffoons in charge of its armed forces,and that has become even worse now as it seems the politicians are in charge.
The dreadful treatment of troops in Afghanistan,poor equipment etc,by the goverment , is another good example.

 

[Sybaris]

Actually you are confused ,and you shouldnt really post if you are so confused,the Wave Front personnel,including Royal Marines, watched as the Chandlers were transferred,HMS CUMBERLAND was only 2 hours away.The reason people are annoyed is that the Wave Front could have delayed the transfer to the mothership ,it had a 30 mm cannon, helicopter,and trained personnel.The indecision by those in charge, and that would appear to be Whitehall,led to the pirates getting clean away with the hostages.They then lied about it pretending the WaveFront was not nearby,until the truth was revealed by angry crew members. The UK has a long tradition of having buffoons in charge of its armed forces,and that has become even worse now as it seems the politicians are in charge.
The dreadful treatment of troops in Afghanistan,poor equipment etc,by the goverment , is another good example.

Yeah right!, so you know all these facts to be true. Do you have a first hand source or are you quoting any specific newspaper article that is known to be the definitive truth?

 

[Algol]

the Wave Front could have delayed the transfer to the mothership ,it had a 30 mm cannon, helicopter,and trained personnel.

In other words it had a big gun, some small arms and no snipers and the Chandlers were already held by the pirates. How would you have sorted that out without harming the hostages, Einstein?

 

[robp]

Actually you are confused ,and you shouldnt really post if you are so confused,the Wave Front personnel,including Royal Marines, watched as the Chandlers were transferred,HMS CUMBERLAND was only 2 hours away.The reason people are annoyed is that the Wave Front could have delayed the transfer to the mothership ,it had a 30 mm cannon, helicopter,and trained personnel.The indecision by those in charge, and that would appear to be Whitehall,led to the pirates getting clean away with the hostages.They then lied about it pretending the WaveFront was not nearby,until the truth was revealed by angry crew members. The UK has a long tradition of having buffoons in charge of its armed forces,and that has become even worse now as it seems the politicians are in charge.
The dreadful treatment of troops in Afghanistan,poor equipment etc,by the goverment , is another good example.

Clarky why are you so rude or personal in your posts? I can understand anyone being frustrated that hostages are taken with apparent inaction by our government. But a debate is a debate, even an argument is an argument but verbal abuse isn't the way to go on a forum. Would you say the things you do in the yacht club bar or the pub? I doubt it.

 

[Woodlouse]

They have to be operating from mother ships.
These should be easily identifiable, with AIS etc.

Sorry. But that is hilarious. I can imagine now the new AIS option for 'piracy' to go with fishing, underwater operations and not under command.


Anyway, yet the pirates do operate from mother ships, or more accurately, the mother ship drops them off in a skiff in the middle of nowhere and says "your only ticket home is capturing another boat."

I've seen this discussion somewhere before, so I'm not getting involved any further.

 

[Sybaris]

"Proper GRP skiffs with a decent outboard! These guys will go round the world in those."

I don't think the Polynesians had outboards, which according to some of these posts, seem to have unlimited fuel range, which is obviously b-ll-cks.

They have to be operating from mother ships.
These should be easily identifiable, with AIS etc.

Yes I agree that the pirates most probably operate from mother ships now most of the time. What I am saying is that their skiffs can easily be confused with the many small and basic fishing skiffs you find all over the northern Indian Ocean (and many other places of the world for that matter). If you don't want to believe that they venture extremely far for weeks on end then go and do some research and come back with your findings. You don't need much diesel do drift around fishing for a week or so do you. In addition to using their engines they also row and some have small sails.

 

[Alcyone]

I hope you don't mind a but in However, are you suggesting maybe an agreement with the Somalies to leave thier coastline alone, so they may be fishermen instead of Pirates, would it be a great Idea? A global naval force, could Police the somali waters to prevent what would be then illegal fishing by Forign boats instead of piracy and of Course there would still be a deterrent to Pirates, indeed the waters are already Policed in a way by several countries, Navys, not hard to see that If they don't fight for themselves nobody else will, and how do they fight? and is it true they have not killed a hostage yet? is that what is already happening and that is why the Navy didn't fire?

Not with that post, Bri. I was providing some background and pointing out the fact that since Somali fishermen routinely arm to warn people off foregigners fishing in their territorial waters, spotting pirates was a tad more complex than some would think.

But hey ho.

 

[David_Jersey]

Did you ever get asked just to play the Triangle in the school band?

Actually..................yes!

Now it all kinda fits................

 

[Clarky]

Yeah right!, so you know all these facts to be true. Do you have a first hand source or are you quoting any specific newspaper article that is known to be the definitive truth?

All the newspapers have now carried this story,with detail as fine as the codeword for the Operation.None of it has been denied by Whitehall ,so why would anbody disbelieve it.The only people who have been distorting facts is the Whitehall people and posters like yourself who dont seem to be able to accept that a huge balls up of indecision took place.
Is your view that the Times,Telegraph,Mail et al have made this up.
Do you belive that the MP`S Expenses scandal took place or was that made up as well ?

 

[alant]

Sorry. But that is hilarious. I can imagine now the new AIS option for 'piracy' to go with fishing, underwater operations and not under command.


Anyway, yet the pirates do operate from mother ships, or more accurately, the mother ship drops them off in a skiff in the middle of nowhere and says "your only ticket home is capturing another boat."

I've seen this discussion somewhere before, so I'm not getting involved any further.

Why not AIS?
Should help screen Sheep from Goats.

If a potential 'mothership' is not transmitting, then it can be deemed as suspicious & given closer scrutiny. Bit like IFF. Any vessel likely to be taken by pirates, could also disable their own AIS, alerting any friendly nearby vessels covertly.