Pilot books and the Dover Strait

[BelleSerene]

It's easy to get more scared than inspired by a pilot book. So perhaps I can ask the voice of experience: is crossing the Dover Strait (specifically, Brighton - Boulogne and then Boulogne - Dover) a much bigger deal than crossing the central Solent?

 

[Habebty]

Yes

 

[BelleSerene]

Yes

OK - now you're allowed to scare me. How?

 

[sailorman]

OK - now you're allowed to scare me. How?

The Fine is much larger if your naughty

 

[DJE]

It's easy to get more scared than inspired by a pilot book. So perhaps I can ask the voice of experience: is crossing the Dover Strait (specifically, Brighton - Boulogne and then Boulogne - Dover) a much bigger deal than crossing the central Solent?

I've done Dover-Calais a few times each way and Calais-Eastbourne once. I'd rate it no more difficult than Solent to Cherbourg. The passages you are proposing will involve some major zig-zags to ensure that you cross the lanes at right angles.

The central Solent on the other hand can be a pig at times, particularly if you get caught up in the back end of the Beneteau Cup fleet!

 

[vyv_cox]

I have never crossed the Solent but I have crossed the Dover Strait on many occasions, although not actually from Brighton to Boulogne. I can't say I have found it particularly problematic, and nowhere near as scary as crossing the Maas entrance, which I have done very many times. Do your best to judge the speed and closeness of approach of shipping but don't change course to avoid until the last minute - the 'non-changing angle' advice doesn't really apply until the ship is about 0.5 to 1.0 mile from you. Although tales of unmanned bridges are often told, the reality in the Strait is that watchkeeping will be good, it is so crowded that there is little option to do otherwise.

 

[shmoo]

It's easy to get more scared than inspired by a pilot book. So perhaps I can ask the voice of experience: is crossing the Dover Strait (specifically, Brighton - Boulogne and then Boulogne - Dover) a much bigger deal than crossing the central Solent?

The ships in the Strait seem more predictable, and dare I say it better behaved than in the Solent, certainly when compared to the IOW ferries. The other aspect is purely personal and that is, given a choice between on one hand, negotiating testosterone pumped racing fleets and lots of weekend sailors and on the other, crossing the path of large professionally crewed ships with limited freedom of movement, AIS, and radar and VHF monitoring from the coasties, I would take the latter every time.

 

[binch]

Yielding right of way

VyvCox's advice to leave alterations until the last minute runs counter to all the wisdom of the seas. The stand-on ship is left in doubt unitl far too late for it to take effective action.
Remember a stand on ship is required to do everything it can to avoid a collision. He does not know you are intending to play chicken with him and he needs time to take emergency avoiding action if you do not do the right thing.
Alter course in plenty of time and do so conspicuously so as to put your intentions beyond doubt

 

[lenseman]

The Fine is much larger if your naughty

And if you get it really, really wrong, there will be nothing left of you to be able to fine!

 

[trapezeartist]

VyvCox's advice to leave alterations until the last minute runs counter to all the wisdom of the seas. The stand-on ship is left in doubt unitl far too late for it to take effective action.
Remember a stand on ship is required to do everything it can to avoid a collision. He does not know you are intending to play chicken with him and he needs time to take emergency avoiding action if you do not do the right thing.
Alter course in plenty of time and do so conspicuously so as to put your intentions beyond doubt

I'm with Vyv on this one. You can't make a sensible course alteration until you have established that there really is a potential collision. Making a clear an unambiguous change of course at half to one mile range is not "playing chicken".

 

[shmoo]

I'm with Vyv on this one. You can't make a sensible course alteration until you have established that there really is a potential collision. Making a clear an unambiguous change of course at half to one mile range is not "playing chicken".

This is a situation where AIS, and particularly the "projected track" feature is useful. You get to see the whole line of crossing ships in the lane for perhaps 40mins to an hour ahead; their projected tracks and yours.

From a good way back from the lane it is possible to plan, tentatively at least, a gap to go through, just under the stern of one ship and a decent distance ahead of the next, on the basis of a clear graphical display of the tracks projected forward in time to to when you are going to arrive at the lane. Of course the situation needs constant monitoring, because the projected tracks can change but it has been our experience that the big ships pretty much hold their course and speed.

 

[nonitoo]

Making a clear an unambiguous change of course at half to one mile range is not "playing chicken".

From the bridge of a large ship - yes it is !!

If I know that my deeply laden vessel has a turning radius of 0.3 mile in deep water, this is increased to about 0.5 mile in shallower water (The Channel), you are well within the "collision cannot be avoided by the action of the giving way vessel alone" - i.e.a very close quarters situation.

A small vessel coming within 1/2 to 1 mile, remaining on a constant bearing, and not knowing its intentions is a cause for great concern on the bridge.

YOU may know what you are intending but no-one else does.

Before mention is made of the use of VHF, the colregs are there to be used and their interpretation should not be qualified by input from another scource that only you may have access to. The large ship has no idea what information you have available to you and will assume very little.

Tom

 

[jpcarter30]

A small vessel coming within 1/2 to 1 mile, remaining on a constant bearing, and not knowing its intentions is a cause for great concern on the bridge.

That's what I was always taught, admittedly by a professional tanker pilot, that to fanny about in front of one of these big boys causes palpitations on board the big boat. Shouldn't be a problem slipping round the stern, should it?

 

[Koeketiene]

is crossing the Dover Strait (specifically, Brighton - Boulogne and then Boulogne - Dover) a much bigger deal than crossing the central Solent?

No - 99% of the craft you're likely to encounter are professionals.
Their actions will be very predictable and the vast majority will actually know what they're doing.

The same can not be said for your average Solent yottie.

 

[vyv_cox]

VyvCox's advice to leave alterations until the last minute runs counter to all the wisdom of the seas. The stand-on ship is left in doubt unitl far too late for it to take effective action.
Remember a stand on ship is required to do everything it can to avoid a collision. He does not know you are intending to play chicken with him and he needs time to take emergency avoiding action if you do not do the right thing.
Alter course in plenty of time and do so conspicuously so as to put your intentions beyond doubt

Don't misunderstand what I wrote. I am most definitely not suggesting that it is reasonable to be ahead of a ship in a dangerous situation, only that it is extremely difficult to judge whether your vessel is anywhere near being at risk until the ship is relatively close. 'Playing chicken' is your misinterpretation of my words. Many times we have watched ships approaching from several miles away, checking its unchanging bearing and preparing to take action. As the ship comes closer, at something like the distance I have suggested, the approach angle suddenly begins to change rapidly, without either vessel altering its course, and what appeared to be a dangerous situation is quite clearly not so.

It is very difficult to judge the course of a vessel without having radar and MARPA and it could be argued that early course changes on a yacht's part could have the exact opposite of the desired effect.

 

[shmoo]

No - 99% of the craft you're likely to encounter are professionals.
Their actions will be very predictable and the vast majority will actually know what they're doing.

The same can not be said for your average Solent yottie.

This is what I was trying to get at in my first post. Guapa has put it rather better than I did. Unless we are heading for a destination in the Solent, we would go south of the island on passage along the south coast.

 

[kingfisher]

First of all, whether you make your course change at -1 Nm or -2Nm doesn't have any influence on the length of your voyage

X | and X | are excatly the same length
| ---
| |
--- |
| |
| |
x x
so why wait?

Secondly, if you can't establish at 1Nm and closeing that there is a risk of collision, then you must assume there is. Just alter course for his rear end, saves everybody a lot of stress. Once you have established that he will pass ahead of you, come back to your original course.

The only justification for waiting loner is if there is a train of ships coming and you need to "slip" between two. (I'm using "slip" in the largest possible context here).

No wonder they call us WAFI's

 

[nonitoo]

It is very difficult to judge the course of a vessel without having radar and MARPA and it could be argued that early course changes on a yacht's part could have the exact opposite of the desired effect.

Before radar there was no problem identifying a collision risk (provided you could see the target vessel).

Why not go back to basics and track the target using your hand bearing compass or even the bearing relative to some bit of your boat - anything like a steady bearing and you're going to hit it. I accept that you mentioned bearings in your post.

Simples (as the annoying rodent says)

Tom

 

[Angele]

Making a clear an unambiguous change of course at half to one mile range is not "playing chicken".

Say big ship is doing 20 kts. 1nm takes 3 mins, 1/2nm takes just 90 secs. If with less than 1nm to go (and therefore only a couple of minutes to impact), the big ship sees that you are still on a constant bearing and you have not yet made your obvious course change, then it will surely start making course changes to avoid you.

Once it begins to turn (slowly, perhaps imperceptibly, at first) and you start to take your avoiding action (because you aren't aware that he has turned his wheel) then it is probably only 50/50% that your respective actions act to diminish the collision risk. There is a strong chance that late course changes being made by both vessels seeking to avoid a collision actually make matters worse.

I'm all for being absolutely sure that a collision risk exists before making course changes. That is absolutely the right thing to do. But, on a day with good viz and a decent handbearing compass (or better still radar and MARPA, if you have it), I think you can establish that to a reasonable degree of probability with much greater distance between you than 1/2 or 1 nm.

I think the only difference between us is our relative perception of a safe distance before which course changes are prudent. Please don't leave it too late without making an obvious course correction or seeking to communicate with the ship to ascertain its intentions. I may not be there to pick up the pieces afterwards!

 

[vyv_cox]

Why not go back to basics and track the target using your hand bearing compass or even the bearing relative to some bit of your boat - anything like a steady bearing and you're going to hit it. I accept that you mentioned bearings in your post.

Simples (as the annoying rodent says)

But that's my point - it isn't simple. From 15 miles down to 1-2 miles the apparent bearing from a slow-moving yacht will be unchanged. It is only at the later stages that the course of the ship becomes evident, and only then that it is possible to tell whether the ship will pass ahead, astern, or be ona collision course. If the yacht alters course when the ship is ten miles away, in the belief that a collision will occur, the situation is very likely to be made worse.