Perkins T6.354 - 145hp, reliability?

[scottie]

Penfold
de, AEC never adopted wet liners, stayed with dry sleeves to the bitter end........Better stop before somebody asks about parts support for AEC Ajax marine engines.

Brings back memories of hanging about Albions parts department waiting for spare parts for the puffer engines
The steam engines were replaced by Ajax engines mostly at Kirkintilloch near the Falkirk wheel

Now a puffer in the wheel would be a sight to see!

 

[penfold]

Brings back memories of hanging about Albions parts department waiting for spare parts for the puffer engines
The steam engines were replaced by Ajax engines mostly at Kirkintilloch near the Falkirk wheel

Now a puffer in the wheel would be a sight to see!

Perhaps they could temporarily repatriate Basuto from scouseland for a while, I don't think the ex-admiralty VIC boats will fit through the canal because of that daft bridge in Clydebank.

 

[tinkicker0]

Ooh goody its turned into an engine discussion.

Some interesting comments, however as far as I am concerned Gardner produced a very nice turbo engine with the 8lxct. The smoke produced at 6am on a frosty monday morning was a little distresing however, esp you had 20 to start, dragging around a battery trolley before the drivers arrived. The drivers arrived late because they found a yard full of exhast smoke distressing and visibilty non existant.
The job would have gone a little quicker however if you did not have to spend a heartstopping 30 seconds waiting for the oil pressure gauge needle to lift off the peg. Good old seddon accy 401s.

Drivers preferred the Gardner 8s over the Cummins NTs in almost every way, except for a thirst for oil and the cool running Gardners had a naff cab heater.

Then as LS said, my darling came out with a fibreglass rocker cover big enough to play football on and a thing most coveted for toolbox display by a young TK........a blue cummins C badge glued on to it. I am talking of course about one of my favourite motors... the L10. Must have rebuilt over 200 of those over the years. One of those badges did "fall off in the wash" and end up on my toolbox lid. Not seen one for years now though. When I see the j type piston cooling jets in a Cummins Isbe I am still reminded of the L10. Happy days.

DAF 1160, best thing they did with that was replace the old 680 cylinder joint studs with stretch bolts which reduced fretting of the surfaces and a stable joint. Last one of those I did was in May and is now tootling round the isle of man.


However few engines these days can survive bus work like the old Gardner 6lx pipe organ. They used to run and run for years.

Another venerable motor that is forgotten but a beauty is the GM Bedford 330. One of the best of the era imo.


And the worst..... as far as apparent ability to self destruct, although to be fair some responded well to proper maintenance

Bedford 466
Leyland 600s
Leyland 500s
Cummins 555
Cummins 903
MAN D0826

I may or may not have added ovlov TD 70 and TD100 but I'd probably get lynched.

Runs for cover faster than a company accountant presented with a parts invoice with OVLOV printed at the top.

 

[talltim]

When Gardners were on strike we received a batch of buses fitted what were called "Rationalised" Leyland 680's, Basically a TL11 without the turbo. Now they would easily join your list of six.

Trusty 6LXB were fitted a few years later

 

[Latestarter1]

Ooh goody its turned into an engine discussion.

Some interesting comments, however as far as I am concerned Gardner produced a very nice turbo engine with the 8lxct. The smoke produced at 6am on a frosty monday morning was a little distresing however, esp you had 20 to start, dragging around a battery trolley before the drivers arrived. The drivers arrived late because they found a yard full of exhast smoke distressing and visibilty non existant.
The job would have gone a little quicker however if you did not have to spend a heartstopping 30 seconds waiting for the oil pressure gauge needle to lift off the peg. Good old seddon accy 401s.

Drivers preferred the Gardner 8s over the Cummins NTs in almost every way, except for a thirst for oil and the cool running Gardners had a naff cab heater.

Then as LS said, my darling came out with a fibreglass rocker cover big enough to play football on and a thing most coveted for toolbox display by a young TK........a blue cummins C badge glued on to it. I am talking of course about one of my favourite motors... the L10. Must have rebuilt over 200 of those over the years. One of those badges did "fall off in the wash" and end up on my toolbox lid. Not seen one for years now though. When I see the j type piston cooling jets in a Cummins Isbe I am still reminded of the L10. Happy days.

DAF 1160, best thing they did with that was replace the old 680 cylinder joint studs with stretch bolts which reduced fretting of the surfaces and a stable joint. Last one of those I did was in May and is now tootling round the isle of man.


However few engines these days can survive bus work like the old Gardner 6lx pipe organ. They used to run and run for years.

Another venerable motor that is forgotten but a beauty is the GM Bedford 330. One of the best of the era imo.


And the worst..... as far as apparent ability to self destruct, although to be fair some responded well to proper maintenance

Bedford 466
Leyland 600s
Leyland 500s
Cummins 555
Cummins 903
MAN D0826

I may or may not have added ovlov TD 70 and TD100 but I'd probably get lynched.

Runs for cover faster than a company accountant presented with a parts invoice with OVLOV printed at the top.

Many moons ago Paul Foden sales director, son of Mr Peter of ERF asked me to visit a customer in Scotland who flatly refused to stop ordering Gardner engines despite the fact that they were running down production.

Truck operation was a spotless well run set up. Owner was lovely quietly spoken guy who simply said, yes I know the L10 is as good as my 6LX's on fuel, lasts just as long and I will lose no payload, but there is one thing it cannot do. At the end of a frantic week I go into the workshop pull up a seat and listen to one of my Gardners running, gives me so much pleasure, that Cummins L10 or yours sounds so 'busy' not for me I am afraid.

Wags at ERF used to claim that 8LXB powered ERF B Series day cab was the Worlds only internally and externally water cooled diesel engine as last three jugs hung out the back of the cab.

Cummins V8 555 should be at the top of the list, horrible horrible engine, once signed off a huge policy claim including a new cab on a Ford Cargo, when I queried why we were paying for a new cab, apparently engine had gone into 'warp' mode, then seized solid, flywheel had sheered bolts, smashed flywheel housing and tried to join the terrified driver in the cab.

My experience with 14.6 VT903 far more positive, high point was a race between 903 powered AS90 self propelled howitzer and Rolls Royce Condor powered Challenger MBT, we beat him hands down. Noisy horrorbox however even small cam 903's still seem to be doing a good job in airport crash tenders.

 

[Tntrawlerman]

I have a 1985 Marine Trader 50' Standard Body with twin Perkins T6-354 turbo aftercooled engines and can make two comments. One is that I love these engines, and the second is that getting parts is NOT that hard. Remember that there are still oodles of these engines out there thanks to Massey Ferguson, and parts are still being OEM'd by several companies. I have had no trouble getting parts (one good source is Trans Atlantic Diesel in VA) and this includes the fact that one of my engines is counter-rotating. Also, there is a company called Maxiforce that sells into the farm and industrial user market mainly that has lots of Perkins parts for T6-354's. To listen to the urban legends, this should spell doom. Hogwash. The injections pumps are very overhaulable and even new ones are easy to buy (albeit expensive). Injectors are easily overhauled and new tips are readily available. Fuel pumps are everywhere available, high pressure lines are easily made if you need them, cylinder liners are dryfit and readily available in the unlikely event that you need them. Even the Holset turbocharger is easily replaceable. The only part that I know is hard to get is the reverse volute freshwater (i.e. antifreeze) on engine pump, and this is easily overhauled with (a) new ceramic to carbon face seals, and (b) new bearings, so the need to buy a new on is very unlikely. Delco Remy starters are easily replaced and/or overhauled and the alternator is available at any auto-parts store. I would however steer clear of the model of the Perkins that had the so-called manicooler, but the ones like mine with separate heat exchanger are readily replaced if necessary by Bowman and others, and I replaced the water cooled manifolds a long time ago with stainless steel ones that cost me about $2600 for the pair. I believe that dollar for dollar, you are unlikely to come up with another engine that is as reliable and repairable in this day and age. The only other near one, and a fair bit newer would likely be based on the Cummins 5BT engine, also a good engine and relatively easily maintained and serviced by a reasonably compos mentos owner.

 

[Latestarter1]

I have a 1985 Marine Trader 50' Standard Body with twin Perkins T6-354 turbo aftercooled engines and can make two comments. One is that I love these engines, and the second is that getting parts is NOT that hard. Remember that there are still oodles of these engines out there thanks to Massey Ferguson, and parts are still being OEM'd by several companies. I have had no trouble getting parts (one good source is Trans Atlantic Diesel in VA) and this includes the fact that one of my engines is counter-rotating. Also, there is a company called Maxiforce that sells into the farm and industrial user market mainly that has lots of Perkins parts for T6-354's. To listen to the urban legends, this should spell doom. Hogwash. The injections pumps are very overhaulable and even new ones are easy to buy (albeit expensive). Injectors are easily overhauled and new tips are readily available. Fuel pumps are everywhere available, high pressure lines are easily made if you need them, cylinder liners are dryfit and readily available in the unlikely event that you need them. Even the Holset turbocharger is easily replaceable. The only part that I know is hard to get is the reverse volute freshwater (i.e. antifreeze) on engine pump, and this is easily overhauled with (a) new ceramic to carbon face seals, and (b) new bearings, so the need to buy a new on is very unlikely. Delco Remy starters are easily replaced and/or overhauled and the alternator is available at any auto-parts store. I would however steer clear of the model of the Perkins that had the so-called manicooler, but the ones like mine with separate heat exchanger are readily replaced if necessary by Bowman and others, and I replaced the water cooled manifolds a long time ago with stainless steel ones that cost me about $2600 for the pair. I believe that dollar for dollar, you are unlikely to come up with another engine that is as reliable and repairable in this day and age. The only other near one, and a fair bit newer would likely be based on the Cummins 5BT engine, also a good engine and relatively easily maintained and serviced by a reasonably compos mentos owner.

Tntrawlerman,

Take a look at earlier thread on the subject....http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...354-replacement/page2&highlight=Perkins+6.354

May comment at the time was use them, however DO NOT spend money on them.

In the last few years I have been involved with five cases where owners have either purchased boats with allegedly re-built engines or spent significant amounts of cash re-building them. In all cases owners were hugely disappointed.

I am old enough to remember the 6.354 when it was a current and we all knew the engine was weak in the head gasket department because the stud pockets do not go deep enough into the block. The Payen MLS gasket was a reasonable fix for head gasket issues, however genuine Payen MLS is NLA. Lube oil consumption was always an issue on new engines and rear crank oil seal was designed to leak at steep installation angles. They also smoked on start up, it was a fact of life. Sadly owners are in denial because to admit otherwise impacts on the value of any vessel with them fitted.

Not sure what CAV pumps you refer to however hydraulically governed DPA pumps which most boaters here have has been discontinued for nearer 20 years and GENUINE parts from Delphi were discontinued when Delphi was Chapter 11, stuff out there is all pattern generally from India. The very fact that the Broom owners club has a spares secretary confirms the fact that some spares are NLA. Last year a set of 175 pistons was needed and the only source was from New Zealand.

The Holset 3LD turbocharger is from another era and more expensive to rebuild than Holset H1's which replaced it.

You mention the Manicooler issue, that was the Dot4 engine, far better base motor than your Dot 2's however you are correct in that these manifolds were at one time NLA, however now available again from Serck but about £4k a pop.

Most boaters here have engines with Lucas rotating electrics, US had far superior Delco electrics.

 

[mersey]

The very fact that the Broom owners club has a spares secretary confirms the fact that some spares are NLA.

I've written on this and at least one other thread that the Broom Owners Club has a "Technical Co-ordinator".

The technical co-ordinators role, is to be the first point of contact within the club, for all technical queries, on a wide range of technical matters to do with peoples vessels, not just engines, not just HT6.354's and not just obtaining spares for them.

As I posted prior, the previous Technical Co-Ordinator, who has HT6.354s in his boat, did produce a document detailing spares availability.

There is no 'spares secretary' in the club, nor is one needed.

I really value your input, and genuinely look forward to reading your posts, which are nearly always of interest and have some insightful and fascinating detail. However, please don't misrepresent what I've posted prior about the Broom Owners Club.

 

[Latestarter1]

I've written on this and at least one other thread that the Broom Owners Club has a "Technical Co-ordinator".

The technical co-ordinators role, is to be the first point of contact within the club, for all technical queries, on a wide range of technical matters to do with peoples vessels, not just engines, not just HT6.354's and not just obtaining spares for them.

As I posted prior, the previous Technical Co-Ordinator, who has HT6.354s in his boat, did produce a document detailing spares availability.

There is no 'spares secretary' in the club, nor is one needed.

I really value your input, and genuinely look forward to reading your posts, which are nearly always of interest and have some insightful and fascinating detail. However, please don't misrepresent what I've posted prior about the Broom Owners Club.

Thank you for clarification.

 

[Tntrawlerman]

Tntrawlerman,

Take a look at earlier thread on the subject....http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...354-replacement/page2&highlight=Perkins+6.354

May comment at the time was use them, however DO NOT spend money on them.

In the last few years I have been involved with five cases where owners have either purchased boats with allegedly re-built engines or spent significant amounts of cash re-building them. In all cases owners were hugely disappointed.

I am old enough to remember the 6.354 when it was a current and we all knew the engine was weak in the head gasket department because the stud pockets do not go deep enough into the block. The Payen MLS gasket was a reasonable fix for head gasket issues, however genuine Payen MLS is NLA. Lube oil consumption was always an issue on new engines and rear crank oil seal was designed to leak at steep installation angles. They also smoked on start up, it was a fact of life. Sadly owners are in denial because to admit otherwise impacts on the value of any vessel with them fitted.

Not sure what CAV pumps you refer to however hydraulically governed DPA pumps which most boaters here have has been discontinued for nearer 20 years and GENUINE parts from Delphi were discontinued when Delphi was Chapter 11, stuff out there is all pattern generally from India. The very fact that the Broom owners club has a spares secretary confirms the fact that some spares are NLA. Last year a set of 175 pistons was needed and the only source was from New Zealand.

The Holset 3LD turbocharger is from another era and more expensive to rebuild than Holset H1's which replaced it.

You mention the Manicooler issue, that was the Dot4 engine, far better base motor than your Dot 2's however you are correct in that these manifolds were at one time NLA, however now available again from Serck but about £4k a pop.

Most boaters here have engines with Lucas rotating electrics, US had far superior Delco electrics.

Depends what the circumstances are when you say "Do not spend money on them". Over time, you will spend some money on nearly any engine the original poster will find in a boat he acquires, and of course some expense is necessary in maintenance terms on every engine. Sure, if the engine threw a rod or the block cracked, then I would say goodbye to it, but that is highly unlikely to happen.

On a couple of other points, I suspect that the supply of things like head gaskets and so on have come a long way since your experience. The current crop of crushable-metal gaskets are very well made and very available. Again, remember there are many thousands of these engines running in farm machinery and as such there is a well-pursued market for these parts, save and except for the counter rotating special parts, which are very few and normally quite repairable. For example, have a look at this catalog page http://www.maxiforce.com/p_k_catalogs/perkins_engine_T6.354.4_073.aspx

The only leaks that I have ever seen on my engines in terms of oil are that both engines leak a very small amount at the front starboard-side engine mount as the bolt goes right into the block and some oil travels down the threads. It is so little that nobody here bothers with it. An oil pad below the engine has maybe a one inch diameter stain after 200 hours of run time (my oil change frequency). These engines are at 5700 hours run time.

As for the injection pumps, here is a link http://www.tadiesels.com/fuel-injectors.html that can sell you all the pumps you would want, but they are readily overhauled in all the major diesel shops around here, and I am sure in the UK as well. Also, here is the link to Delphi, and they came out of the GM linked chapter 11 just fine http://tinyurl.com/ns7fvmk and manufacture pumps today.

What my point is, is that the Perkins engine is a well-known, well-built engine and if it is fundamentally sound, has an efficiency that is likely within 10% as good as the best you will buy now. If one looks at the brake specific fuel consumption figures for these old engines and the latest crop, there is not a very big difference. So, you won't get great economy, you will spend a ton of money, you won't escape some maintenance and repair costs, and you will not have much more performance out of the boat. If the parts really were as rare as hen's teeth, or if the subject engines were truly trashed, then I would concur with "not spending money on them", but for most of the usual repairs (lift pump replace, Inj. pump overhaul, injectors overhauled, fresh water pump seal replaced, starter overhauled or replaced, etc.) the engines are certainly worth it compared to the cost of replacement. Especially since the cost of replacement does not just mean buying the engines, but all the work to install and commission them which can approach the cost of one of them as well. An owner needs to be a bit active if he wants to keep expenses down, and I for instance bought my stainless steel exhaust manifolds from a member of the Moonraker boat club who was hand making them. They are a work of art, and will likely outlive me, as will the engines I suspect.

 

[Latestarter1]

Tntrawlerman,

I know Tadiesels very well and decent outfit. However lets deal with just one point. Perkins were notified in the very early 1970's that Lucas wanted to obsolete the hydraulically governed DPA injection pump which was as leftover from JV with RoosterMaster. Lucas had developed the far better and quite different mechanically governed injection pump. Perkins was building large numbers of engines for UK MOD and faced resistance to the change. Lucas warned that these engines would prove difficult to support in the longer term, and that was in the 1970's. For export markets particularly the US Perkins were keen to ensure that 6.354's were fitted with the mechanically governed fuel pump. Mechanically governed DPA is still being produced by Delpi in small numbers.

Unlike you, majority of 6.354 owners here in Europe have hydraulically governed DPA.

In 1997 we did trials on mechanically governed DPA pumps when 50ppm fuel was introduced. The DPA was suffering hot restart problems on 50 ppm fuel. The engineers from Lucas Delphi said that these 'light' fuels were never envisaged when the DPA was designed and this would ultimately impact on durability. We now have engines running on a diet of sulfur free fuel and pump tolerances will struggle to cope with this stuff in the long term.

I will continue to say use them however do not spend money on these old engines.

PS just looked at the Maxiforce link, this stuff is for the later Dot4 engine not Dot2 stuff.

 

[oldgit]

Pair here for sale.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/boat-project-/221487534817?pt=UK_Power_Boats&hash=item3391af92e1