Perkins T6.354 - 145hp, reliability?

Firefly625 said:
anyone (well actually Latestarter1) got a view on Caterpillar 3116 6 cylinder 6.6 litre circa 1998 vintage..
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Well yes I have , last week I bumped into ex cat dealer man on pontoons, we got chatting and it turned out he was a northerner too, we discussed cat marine motors .
He said the 3116 and 3126 were a throw away motor in design a d good for 3000/4000 hours. After that they were scrap.
Designed as a. Industrial motor and adapted for marine use but was a very dirty engine on emissions. We then discussed the block issues and oil change interval, he advised strong servicing and oil sampling a must on these motors due to poor combustion in marine use , I'd guess down to the fuel amount squeezed in to give the hp rating of a lazy non stressed industrial engine .
 
burgundyben said:
Yes, the Perkins T6.354.

Just be aware of it being 50 year old technology and parts availability becoming more difficult/costly.
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I'm missing the blatantly obvious here aren't I! not for the first time either...

Gotcha. So, a lot of these older engines are good, probably reliable etc but they are highly likely to need expensive maintenance simply because of their age, assuming spares are still available.
Anything less than 30 Years old will be a better bet (assuming well looked after) purely because spares are more likely to be available, and they've had a lot less time sat around in a salty environment.
So, the ideal ideal would be an older boat, that's already had a repower carried out fairly recently, and with decent engines. Or, a major, fully documented, rebuild on the originals.
 
volvopaul said:
Well yes I have , last week I bumped into ex cat dealer man on pontoons, we got chatting and it turned out he was a northerner too, we discussed cat marine motors .
He said the 3116 and 3126 were a throw away motor in design a d good for 3000/4000 hours. After that they were scrap.
Designed as a. Industrial motor and adapted for marine use but was a very dirty engine on emissions. We then discussed the block issues and oil change interval, he advised strong servicing and oil sampling a must on these motors due to poor combustion in marine use , I'd guess down to the fuel amount squeezed in to give the hp rating of a lazy non stressed industrial engine .
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Hi Paul, I had heard similar from someone else... thanks for confirming. I will keep looking.
 
Firefly625 said:
anyone (well actually Latestarter1) got a view on Caterpillar 3116 6 cylinder 6.6 litre circa 1998 vintage..
Click to expand...

I generally simply say when asked and engine with a colorful history.

3116 6.6 liter 105 x 127 together with long dead four cylinder 3114 were designed to take on both the Cummins 5.9 liter B & 8.25 liter C Series however projected volume demanded that hey could only afford to tool up for one engine the 3116 had to sit between B & C. Cat wanted to keep fuel system in house and not adopt a proprietary fuel system i.e Bosch, Delphi set up, mainly due to pressure from distributors to retain as much revenue from the engines as possible.

The mechanical fuel system has a very bulky injector limits cylinder head layout to just three valves with little meat between them. Lack of meat in the head results in motor being very sensitive to overheat, cylinder cracks at first sign of trouble.

After the magnificent 3208 Cat engineers left their brains at home when marinising this engine, for example the turbo location is simply an accident waiting to happen.

Whilst B Series grew in power capability 3116 was squeezed hard, as it could not reach power output of the C. Very early on during life of the 3116 Cat were looking at increasing the bore to 110mm whilst retaining 127mm stroke giving a displacement of 7.2 litres and max power output of 450 hp using HUEI injection system. This increased displacement enabled the engine to do much of what Cummins 8.25 C could do at around 20% less unit cost. 7.2 met required power density density however durability and reliability was not of the highest order and oil drain intervals with HUEI do not meet European standards. The longer 127mm stroke also limited the quantity of oil in the pan.

The 3126 was replaced with a warmed over 110x127 engine using a revised crossflow cylinder head, this was designated C7 and about this time engineers got wise regarding turbo location.

With industrial emissions racing ahead of marine Cat soon realised that HUEI was a blind ally, 110x127 bore and stroke was not optimum from an emissions standpoint.
For industrial applications C7.2 was dropped at Stage 3 emissions and replaced by C7.1, reintroducing the old 3116 bore dimension of 105mm however with a new crank giving 135mm stroke yet another cylinder head four valves per cylinder now permitted by using a common rail fuel system, however the long stroke of 135 restricted ability of this engine to rev, so they re-introduced what was effectively 3116 105x127 with C7.1 improvements now calling it the C6.6. Are you with me so far..............

Marine C7 still stuck in Tier 2 time warp with Cat now selling Iveco FPT as Cat 8.7 at Tier 3 marine.

If you can make any sense of what I am saying, you win prize off the top shelf!
 
Murv said:
I'm missing the blatantly obvious here aren't I! not for the first time either...

Gotcha. So, a lot of these older engines are good, probably reliable etc but they are highly likely to need expensive maintenance simply because of their age, assuming spares are still available.
Anything less than 30 Years old will be a better bet (assuming well looked after) purely because spares are more likely to be available, and they've had a lot less time sat around in a salty environment.
So, the ideal ideal would be an older boat, that's already had a repower carried out fairly recently, and with decent engines. Or, a major, fully documented, rebuild on the originals.
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perkins built and sold over a million 6345's between 1960's to the 1996 so should be plenty of spares to be had yet.
the one's to avoid are the one's layed over on their side.
it's all about the condition of the engine and how much care its had.
got a pair of 175hp 6345's in the moonraker which start first time every time,dont want for anything.. and dont use any oil between change's
in 5 yrs i have had the boat they have been 110% reliable..
we cant all run around in brand new stuff.. or their would'nt be any classic's about.:encouragement:

and yes i no i'm going to get slated by l/s..as he dont like perk's
 
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moonraker 36 said:
perkins built and sold over a million 6345's between 1960's to the 1996 so should be plenty of spares to be had yet.
the one's to avoid are the one's layed over on their side.
it's all about the condition of the engine and how much care its had.
got a pair of 175hp 6345's in the moonraker which start first time every time,dont want for anything.. and dont use any oil between change's
in 5 yrs i have had the boat they have been 110% reliable..
we cant all run around in brand new stuff.. or their would'nt be any classic's about.:encouragement:

and yes i no i'm going to get slated by l/s..as he dont like perk's
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Good point, there certainly are a lot out there, and commanding big money, too!
I guess that's the key thing though, as you said, meticulous maintenance and you've got a good chance. But, anything neglected is going to be an expensive mistake.

moonraker 36 said:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?161523-Volvo-D-series-failures
even more modern stuff have their problem's..!!
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I've never had a new boat, nor will ever be in a position to have one but I was fairly amazed, after speaking to some owners of new boats, just how many problems they can have!
 
6354s have so many variants with their own particular issues it is impossible to say. Iron liners, chrome liners, turbo, non turbo, limited expansion pistons with quenches, one thing is certain however, they are all now geriatric and anything more than routine maintenance will be a nightmare of sheared bolts, corroded waterways, difficult to obtain parts, I doubt even the aerosol gasket spray that was an absolute necessity for keeping oil in the motor would be available now.


Take it from someone who gets presented with old iron to recondition on a regular basis, unless you have lots of time and treat maintenance of old iron as a hobby, great. I am talking automotive here, marine is even worse. If you want a motor to drive your boat without spoiling your fun, forget it.

I never disclose my occupation down the marina because of the motley collection of perks 4108s, BMC 1800s and various slanting Fords that hopeful owners would try entice me to look at and would ultimately make me look an idiot makes being incognito the best survival strategy.

Perks were good engines in their day, supermarine spitfires were good fighter planes also, but you would not want to go to war in one.
 
Virtually everything in this price bracket is going to have lumps of old iron installed.
IMHO all the design faults which came built into ancient engines have long ago surfaced and sorted.Its purely now down to how the engine was maintained by the previous owners over past 40 years or so.
A set of loved engines,no matter how well looked after could still be problematical,its the chance you take.
Decent access to spares and after market bits is all you can really ask for.
If you rule out older boats with older engines you will be on the shore watching until you afford a newish boat but remember to have the man from Volvo and his Canbus reader on speed dial.

Regards the Volvo 40A,mine pair had 5K on the clocks and did not burn a drop of oil from one change to the next.
If the right boat came along with these would have no problem in buying it.
Read through the forums and remembering how long most of these old engines have been around and the sheer numbers of them still reliably in use, note how few threads are there regards problems.
Do the same with all the magic electronic snake oil new stuff, probably a tiny fraction of the numbers and compare the number of tales of woe, not through wearing out , just merely fragility especially those electronics. :)
The more power squeezed out of the engine the shorter time between rebuilds.
 
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Thanks Fred, always good to have your input, makes a lot of sense :)
At the moment, we have the best of both Worlds. We get to pay all the mooring fees, insurance, thousands of pounds on maintenance etc, and still only get to watch from the shore.
Really just trying to minimise the chances of that happening quite so often which is why I'm thinking of shafts and big, lazy, (ideally) normally aspirated, low powered engines that make peak torque at little more than tick over.

Or oars. Oars have been working very nicely for the last few weekends. The engines are a little underpowered, wheezy and lazy, but breakdowns have been non-existent!
 
it's like saying i'm after an e-type jag..but i'll wait until one comes along fitted with a bmw engine.!

the best thing about the old stuff is if you no which way to turn a spanner....you can do alot of the servicing, repair's and maintance yourself which helps keep the cost down.

horses for courses....
 
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moonraker 36 said:
it's like saying i'm after an e-type jag..but i'll wait until one comes along fitted with a bmw engine.!

the best thing about the old stuff is if you no which way to turn a spanner....you can do alot of the servicing, repair's and maintance yourself which helps keep the cost down.

horses for courses....
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I have to admit, an e-type fitted with one of Audi's tdi units would be very appealing!

(apologies to all classic car fanatics)
 
moonraker 36 said:
it's like saying i'm after an e-type jag..but i'll wait until one comes along fitted with a bmw engine.!

the best thing about the old stuff is if you no which way to turn a spanner....you can do alot of the servicing, repair's and maintance yourself which helps keep the cost down.

horses for courses....
Click to expand...


rather than buying an old worn out boat from the last century which could need massive repairs , why not consider something like a merry fisher 925 single engine from about 2005 vintage for £50-60k. It's will have already suffered a huge depreciation hit so it value should stay reasonably steady over the next 5 years.

I think they came with different several engine options from nanny to yanmar.

you could always fit out the interior to suit your requirements......



..
 
In my ignorance, I love my old 6354 horizontals. Everything is accessible and she purrs away hour after hour. They have never missed a beat, start on the button and sound lovely. I have had a little work done - turbo reconditioned on one and fuel pump on the other. Not expensive and Brooms have been brilliant.

They will never be massively fast, but I have confidence in them at sea and they do as I ask them to do.
 
Robin B said:
In my ignorance, I love my old 6354 horizontals. Everything is accessible and she purrs away hour after hour. They have never missed a beat, start on the button and sound lovely. I have had a little work done - turbo reconditioned on one and fuel pump on the other. Not expensive and Brooms have been brilliant.

They will never be massively fast, but I have confidence in them at sea and they do as I ask them to do.
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hay men to that..
ditto...
just like mine.. turn the key they start first time every time..
 
rustybarge said:
rather than buying an old worn out boat from the last century which could need massive repairs , why not consider something like a merry fisher 925 single engine from about 2005 vintage for £50-60k. It's will have already suffered a huge depreciation hit so it value should stay reasonably steady over the next 5 years.

I think they came with different several engine options from nanny to yanmar.

you could always fit out the interior to suit your requirements......



..
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err 50-60k so double the budget the op was talking about then.

you could always fit out the interior to suit your requirements..

so an interior refit as well...

sound like a steal..
 
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moonraker 36 said:
so you have heard about the dpf filter problems with the tdi's then murv...

http://www.dpfissues.co.uk/audi-a3-dpf-issues/
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I've run elderly Audi's for Years now, never ever had any problems with dpf filters, or anything else quite honestly.
The current V6 is on 150,000 miles, it blew an alternator, some of the suspension components have been replaced due to driving it on the excuses for road surfaces over here, but that engine has never missed a beat.
It's torquey, cruises to Scotland in palatial comfort, pulls like a train and has never let me down. Just like the 1.9tdi before it!

Horses for courses!
 
rustybarge said:
rather than buying an old worn out boat from the last century which could need massive repairs , why not consider something like a merry fisher 925 single engine from about 2005 vintage for £50-60k. It's will have already suffered a huge depreciation hit so it value should stay reasonably steady over the next 5 years.

I think they came with different several engine options from nanny to yanmar.

you could always fit out the interior to suit your requirements......



..
Click to expand...

As above, I'm never going to be in a position to spend that much, unless it was a live aboard.
Great idea though, and if I was allowed to buy a simple fishing boat, like I always wanted, it wouldn't be an issue!
Small, trailerable, modern 4 stroke outboard...job done!

I have no qualms about running an old engine, just as long as spares are readily available and they're fairly straightforward to repair.
I think it's all been said really, find something that's been well maintained, check that spares aren't a problem, and hope for the best :)
Nothing can be as unreliable as the current boat, so anything at all would be a step upwards!
 
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