P'd off with Princess.

[andy59]

Looking at the photo that MapisM posted of James's boat i keep thinking that the geometry seems to extreme, i.e. the top of the ram is connected to the passarelle to close to the transom pivot point, giving an extreme leverage load ( maybe 6X 160 kg ?)at the foot of the ram, or has my brain just farted

 

[J12345T]

Looking at the photo that MapisM posted of James's boat i keep thinking that the geometry seems to extreme, i.e. the top of the ram is connected to the passarelle to close to the transom pivot point, giving an extreme leverage load ( maybe 6X 160 kg ?)at the foot of the ram, or has my brain just farted

It looks pretty much exactly the same as Henryf's? Unless I'm missing something..

Cheers. James.

 

[andy59]

Will be interesting to see if Henry’s boat has reinforcements fitted, hope that yours is easily repaired .

 

[jfm]

Looking at the photo that MapisM posted of James's boat i keep thinking that the geometry seems to extreme, i.e. the top of the ram is connected to the passarelle to close to the transom pivot point, giving an extreme leverage load ( maybe 6X 160 kg ?)at the foot of the ram, or has my brain just farted

You're correct, brain is working fine. But actually that 6:1 isn't extreme. On a letterbox passerelle like mine it is literally 100:1, though not passed through the GRP boat structure of course. With heavy construction these loads and multiples are perfectly fine.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

It looks pretty much exactly the same as Henryf's? Unless I'm missing something..

Cheers. James.

How was the passerelle originally specced? Is there a possibility that it was ordered for pedestrian use only, or for tender lifting duties as well? (I've got a really faint recollection that I've seen something like this on an order form somewhere - but I might very well be wrong). If for pedestrian use only, would this explain why the lifting capacity on the data plate is absent?

 

[J12345T]

How was the passerelle originally specced? Is there a possibility that it was ordered for pedestrian use only, or for tender lifting duties as well? (I've got a really faint recollection that I've seen something like this on an order form somewhere - but I might very well be wrong). If for pedestrian use only, would this explain why the lifting capacity on the data plate is absent?

The Princess rep in Australia told me that there was only one spec for the passerelle. He is ex the Princess factory so probably should know what he's talking about; but you never know...

 

[Bouba]

As far as I know, the specs for the passerelle come from the passerelle manufacturers. Have you tried contacting them?
If Princess say it’s not for lifting, are they really saying that the swim platform is not for holding a tender?

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

The Princess rep in Australia told me that there was only one spec for the passerelle. He is ex the Princess factory so probably should know what he's talking about; but you never know...

I think in your position I'd want to get my hands on the original factory order for the boat.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

As far as I know, the specs for the passerelle come from the passerelle manufacturers. Have you tried contacting them?
If Princess say it’s not for lifting, are they really saying that the swim platform is not for holding a tender?

They're not saying that at all: the bathing platform is supplied with dinghy chock fittings as standard so there can be no question about that. But until it is definitively known how the passerelle ended up on this particular boat, it is hard to be definitive about where the responsibility for the fault lies. I think the apparent difference in installation between Henryf's boat and James's boat is significant.

 

[Bouba]

I don’t know about Princess but with Beneteau (as far as I know) all options (and a passerelle would be an option) are installed by the dealer. So different dealer, different option (I assume you can choose a longer passerelle etc) could lead to different installations. But some prep work (eg reinforcement) could be factory

 

[Portofino]

I don’t know about Princess but with Beneteau (as far as I know) all options (and a passerelle would be an option) are installed by the dealer. So different dealer, different option (I assume you can choose a longer passerelle etc) could lead to different installations. But some prep work (eg reinforcement) could be factory

See post #47 .......introducing a “ pass prep kit “ into the equation.

Without sight of Henry’s underneath fitting or any others P50 .

@ James .....is there in the boat handbook any references to passerelle use ?
Specifically warning not to use it as a crane .
The already mentioned label / plate on it with the blank lifting load is compelling ?
So how’s that come about the pass maker ......
Manufacturers two versions ?
V 1 a fully craned version with associated hefty pump , pipage rams etc + detailed fitting instructions about foot support and transoms brackets etc ,....with a label stating both weights ?

Or V2 a lighter made one for people embarkation only with a label omitting the crane spec lift .

Or only ONE version that does both functions correctly labelled and Someone has erased the crane lift stat from the label ? ......because they kinda knew THAT boat ( not saying Henry’s ) has not been correctly pre prepared for a crane version ?

Just wanna know how and who erased the lift number on the pass sticker / plate .
Pass manufacturers or the pass installer .

We are not 100 % certain ( without the build sheets ) who installed it .....Princess @ factory or DLB in La Nap .

DLB are the Fr Priny Cote d Azur concessionaires.

 

[Portofino]

Bit faded now .
Sollevabile = lift .90 kg
Transitabile = pass .120 kg

 

[Portofino]

So what I,am getting at is perhaps the passerelle manufacturer leaves the sticker blank when it leave the factory and leaves it up to the installer to inscribe / mark the final weights .
Because the pass manufacturer does not , cannot know where it’s going to be prescriptive .
He only knows the max specs as in the brochure and so does the buyer , wether a boat builder or retro fitter .

Hence the blank “ lift “ data on the sticker ?
So who ever fitted it new ( as Princess are saying) did not inscribe the lift part as it’s not for lifting because the foot ain’t supported enough.Ok for walking only .

This might be the total explanation?

If so suggest everyone checks there sticker ASAP .:encouragement:

Interesting to see Henry’s please .

You see my hydraulics May be capable of lifting 200 kg but the transoms only structurally supported for the 90:/120 etc hence the inscription.

Perhaps that’s how it works ?

So the same passerelle on different boats has different numbers......depending on what the builder suggest / calculated etc etc .In this case zero for lift .
The original passage / walking number has been retained because it’s unlikely more than 4/5 persons are gonna walk on it simultaneously.
They have just not written anything on the label in the lift box.

 

[Bouba]

450 kgs is a lot of human traffic. When I lived on a Pacific island I once watched the state visit of the King of Tonga, they got him out of the plane with a forklift. But he would still have been less than half of 450 kgs !!! Good to know he could have gone for a ride in James’ boat

 

[J12345T]

They're not saying that at all: the bathing platform is supplied with dinghy chock fittings as standard so there can be no question about that. But until it is definitively known how the passerelle ended up on this particular boat, it is hard to be definitive about where the responsibility for the fault lies. I think the apparent difference in installation between Henryf's boat and James's boat is significant.

Hi Jimmy,

Can you explain to me what you think the difference between the installation on Henryf's boat and my boat is please as to me they look exactly the same.

Cheers,

James.

 

[J12345T]

See post #47 .......introducing a “ pass prep kit “ into the equation.

Without sight of Henry’s underneath fitting or any others P50 .

@ James .....is there in the boat handbook any references to passerelle use ?
Specifically warning not to use it as a crane .
The already mentioned label / plate on it with the blank lifting load is compelling ?
So how’s that come about the pass maker ......
Manufacturers two versions ?
V 1 a fully craned version with associated hefty pump , pipage rams etc + detailed fitting instructions about foot support and transoms brackets etc ,....with a label stating both weights ?

Or V2 a lighter made one for people embarkation only with a label omitting the crane spec lift .

Or only ONE version that does both functions correctly labelled and Someone has erased the crane lift stat from the label ? ......because they kinda knew THAT boat ( not saying Henry’s ) has not been correctly pre prepared for a crane version ?

Just wanna know how and who erased the lift number on the pass sticker / plate .
Pass manufacturers or the pass installer .

We are not 100 % certain ( without the build sheets ) who installed it .....Princess @ factory or DLB in La Nap .

DLB are the Fr Priny Cote d Azur concessionaires.

Firstly let me reiterate the passerelle is NOT the problem. It had no trouble lifting the load. The ram is huge and easily capable of lifting into the tonnes; as is the pump and associated plumbing.

It is an Opacmare 8998 series passerelle I believe. Looking at the specs it has a loading capacity of 450kg and a 'Peso' (lifting weight?) of between 133kg and 240kg depending on model. I also note that the position of the top of the ram is adjustable which may increase or reduce the loads to the mounting points (again I'm no engineer). It states in the title that it is "Ideal for jet ski and tender lifting" so....

James.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Hi Jimmy,

Can you explain to me what you think the difference between the installation on Henryf's boat and my boat is please as to me they look exactly the same.

Cheers,

James.

Sorry James, maybe I misunderstood: I thought there was a suggestion that the foot of the ram on your boat was different in some detail to the foot of the ram on Henry's.

The original order form for your new boat when new is the key to all of this. I bought a new P42 in 2008, same time as your boat was built. For the P42, there was a factory option which was transom preparation for passerelle. This is not the same as ordering the actual passerelle - this was an additional-cost item to have reinforcement added to the transom moulding for the later addition of a passerelle. If you ordered the factory-fit passerelle then you got the reinforcement as well. But if you were contemplating the retro fit of a passerelle at some point in the future, the reinforcement was offered as an option. I wonder if the same option was offered/ordered for your boat.

For your boat, and absent the original order sheet, there are three ways that the passerelle could have been fitted: at the factory, when the boat was being built; by the supplying dealer before the boat was delivered; and by some third party at some subsequent point. Given that your installation appears to be so OE it seems to me that the first two options are the most likely. If your boat was originally supplied to the UK then I think this means the dealer would have been Plymouth or Swanwick; from experience of the Swanwick guys (Landau, on behalf of PMYS) they are very good at installations that look precisely OE. But you can see the obvious possibilities for the passerelle to have been fitted without reinforcement, deliberately - and you need the order form to figure this out.

I'm very sure that Henry's boat had the passerelle fitted at the factory. If all else fails you could ask him to take photos of the inside of the transom where the passerelle is fixed, to see if it is the same as yours - might help you figure out what's gone wrong in your case. Good luck.

 

[MapisM]

what you think the difference between the installation on Henryf's boat and my boat is please as to me they look exactly the same.

They do look the same in the external pics above, but H said "Mounting plate is fixed into vertical wall from memory but resting on bathing platform base so supported from 2 directions."
Otoh, my understanding of your installation is that the mounting plate of the cylinder only rests on the bathing platform.
And if this is true, the capacity to support the cylinder when the passerelle is used for lifting weights could be significantly different.
Arguably a poor show from the builder, if they really made two different mounting plates just to fetch more money for the stronger one, but... Hey-ho!

It is an Opacmare 8998 series passerelle I believe. Looking at the specs it has a loading capacity of 450kg and a 'Peso' (lifting weight?) of between 133kg and 240kg depending on model. I also note that the position of the top of the ram is adjustable which may increase or reduce the loads to the mounting points (again I'm no engineer). It states in the title that it is "Ideal for jet ski and tender lifting" so....

I must say that my compatriots in Turin could have done a better job, with that specs sheet.
Right before the sentence which you quoted, they also state "This gangway allows the boarding of 150 kg / 330 lbs maximum (one person at a time)", which is in sharp contrast with the loading capacity.

But I had a look at their website, and checked also other models, smaller and larger, and the 150 Kg & one person statement is a constant in all of them.
So, I suspect that this has more to see with some safety rules specifically related to humans walking on the thing, while the actual capacity for lifting dead weights is as per their tables, which are indeed very different depending on the models.

Btw, the last column ("Peso/Weight") is certainly related to the weight of the passerelle itself, which obviously depends more on the different sizes, rather than lifting capacity.
That's the only usage of the IT wording that makes sense, in this context.

 

[J12345T]

Sorry James, maybe I misunderstood: I thought there was a suggestion that the foot of the ram on your boat was different in some detail to the foot of the ram on Henry's.

The original order form for your new boat when new is the key to all of this. I bought a new P42 in 2008, same time as your boat was built. For the P42, there was a factory option which was transom preparation for passerelle. This is not the same as ordering the actual passerelle - this was an additional-cost item to have reinforcement added to the transom moulding for the later addition of a passerelle. If you ordered the factory-fit passerelle then you got the reinforcement as well. But if you were contemplating the retro fit of a passerelle at some point in the future, the reinforcement was offered as an option. I wonder if the same option was offered/ordered for your boat.

For your boat, and absent the original order sheet, there are three ways that the passerelle could have been fitted: at the factory, when the boat was being built; by the supplying dealer before the boat was delivered; and by some third party at some subsequent point. Given that your installation appears to be so OE it seems to me that the first two options are the most likely. If your boat was originally supplied to the UK then I think this means the dealer would have been Plymouth or Swanwick; from experience of the Swanwick guys (Landau, on behalf of PMYS) they are very good at installations that look precisely OE. But you can see the obvious possibilities for the passerelle to have been fitted without reinforcement, deliberately - and you need the order form to figure this out.

I'm very sure that Henry's boat had the passerelle fitted at the factory. If all else fails you could ask him to take photos of the inside of the transom where the passerelle is fixed, to see if it is the same as yours - might help you figure out what's gone wrong in your case. Good luck.

All the documentation is up on the boat so I can't confirm at this stage. It will be interesting to see if Henryf can get a picture or two of his installation to compare with mine.

Despite all of this though, the owners manual of the P50 does state that the passerelle is not to be used for anything except loading/unloading of people so regardless Princess don't authorise lifting tenders... Ho hum..

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

All the documentation is up on the boat so I can't confirm at this stage. It will be interesting to see if Henryf can get a picture or two of his installation to compare with mine.

Despite all of this though, the owners manual of the P50 does state that the passerelle is not to be used for anything except loading/unloading of people so regardless Princess don't authorise lifting tenders... Ho hum..

Was your boat first sold to the UK market, or to the Med? If UK, I'd be talking to someone at Swanwick to see if they can help you out with a copy of the original order (I would have thought it is unlikely to be with the boat doco pack, it's the sort of thing that would have gone straight to the owner).

It's pretty clear that some configurations of the passerelle do allow it to be used as a crane:



So I'm wondering if yours was ordered without the transom reinforcement, hence the warning in the handbook, the absent lifting capacity and the subsequent grp failure.