PBO #561: Diver down flag

Neil_Y said:
As I found in my PADI manual they promote and advise the use of both flags equally
Click to expand...

It's been a long time since I looked at my PADI manual, and I can't find it. I'm sure you are correct, I'm only commenting on what I have experienced since.

It doesn't really matter who is wrong or right, my point was that boaters should also look for the red and white flag.
 
Or, if divers want to be seen and understood in this country,, they should use 'A'. They should also realise that flags are only visible from the side, not from up or down wind, and use rigid boards, if they want to remain safe.
 
Piers said:
Hi Rigger Mortice.

Info in the Reeds Almanac, section 5 (Communications); 5.1 (The International Code of Signals).

I mentioned the USA version as well since I found it on the web....
Click to expand...
Hi Piers,

Are we talking about the same thing?
I'm saying that the Code flag for "U" ("You are running into danger") is a red/white quartered check flag. I'm also saying that the Diagonal white on red background flag (i.e. the US diver down flag) is not a flag from the ICS.

I've also checked my domestic (ie old!) Reeds and it bears out what I'm saying.

Surely we're talking at cross purposes? I can't believe there are two different code flags for "U".
 
Would it not be so much better if the US of A was encouraged to comply with the Internationally recognised flag?
 
NormanS said:
Would it not be so much better if the US of A was encouraged to comply with the Internationally recognised flag?
Click to expand...

As mentioned in an earlier post, I believe they do: federal law dictates use of the alpha flag in all navigable US waters: Do an Internet search for "dive flag federal law" (or similar) and there's many pages describing the legal situation, e.g.:
http://www.dive-flag.com/law.html

Some state laws specify the red and white flag but this doesn't overrule federal law, so in the ocean (as opposed to an inland lake) divers should be flying alpha in addition to any red and white flag they may wish to fly. Practice may be totally different (from this thread I'm guessing it is), and this is just from research rather than personal experience, so american lawyers who dive are very welcome to rubbish this :-)
 
As I said in an earlier post, I've been told that the A flag is for recommended use by commercial/military diving in the US, whilst the red and white flag is for recreational diving. Whatever the law may say, that is what is the practice in US waters. On a practical note, commercial diving is such that the divers are likely to be under or very close to the tender vessel, whilst for recreational diving, the divers may well be some distance from the tender, thus making the distinction worthwhile. I've dived several times in US waters as a recreational diver and only ever seen the red and white flag flown.

As regards outside of US waters, then the A flag is the general rule but I've seen the red and white flag flown as well, either by itself or in company with the red and white one in waters from the UK to Eygpt and beyond.

Whilst the IMO may not recognise the red and white flag, a quick reality check will show that it is widely used and therefore worth bringing to folks notice, which this thread has done to this audience.
 
It just seems so stupid and unnecessary to re-invent something which already works, and thereby cause confusion, and danger.:mad:
 
As a code signal the International maritime signal flag A has the meaning of "I have a diver down; keep well clear at slow speed used to indicate the presence of a diver in the water, and is more commonly employed in Europe and the British Commonwealth, including countries such as United Kingdom, Ireland, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, and Kenya. It is also used by Russian Navy for the same purpose.

Thus it's likely that the red and white flag is used elsewhere wher PADI is the main qualification, it is used in the Caribbean.
 
NormanS said:
It just seems so stupid and unnecessary to re-invent something which already works, and thereby cause confusion, and danger.:mad:
Click to expand...

You are right. But the fact is that it HAS been reinvented. Right or wrong people DO use the red/white flag to mean diver down. You can't control what they do, so best just to be aware of it.

Not very satisfactory, but practical.
 
I can understand how it has come about. Rightly or wrongly, (I couldn't possibly comment), there is a perception that our American cousins are very unaware of the rest of the world.
 
NormanS said:
I can understand how it has come about. Rightly or wrongly, (I couldn't possibly comment), there is a perception that our American cousins are very unaware of the rest of the world.
Click to expand...

Mercans unaware of the rest of the world? God forbid... I still take the proverbial out of my diver mate from Rhode Island who when told he needed to go to the visa desk in Sharm El Sheikh just kept shouting at the tour guide that he had American Express so he didn't need one ;)
 
Interesting thread...
Thank you.

I have seen the red / white flag down in the Med. and often wondered what it meant, to the point that on one occasion I bothered to look it up in the various books and almanacs on board - to no avail.

As of now I will see the Alpha as

"Diver down, slow down and keep clear"

and the red / white effort as

"Inexperienced or poorly educated diver down , keep very well clear "

!!!:)
 
What a super thread this topic has generated.
I haven't posted for yonks, but for what it's worth here is my six penny worth.
I qualified as an army diver In Marchwood on the Solent in 1965. During that time we would dive from army assault boats flying flag alpha. I now wonder, from the threads I have read, if it should have been a piece of plywood of the correct size and painted the correct colours?
Following being qualified, I shipped out to the far east and during my time there became a BSAC second class diver. I remember that my first BSAC dive manual had both flags illustrated in it. The words in the manual ran something like "flag alpha is the international recognised signal for a diver down, but there are areas in the world that use the red flag and white diagonal namely the U.S and Caribbean" something like that. After my demob from the forces in 1972 I became a professional oilfield diver and hyperbaric welder, sounds very grand doesn't it. I worked on dive support vessels and construction barges all over the world, but no matter where I worked I never saw a DSV or construction barge, that I worked on, fly the red flag and white diagonal, only flag alpha, and this includes the coastal U.S. Mexico and Canada. I did see small dive vessels in the U.S gulf of Mexico fly this flag but even the U.S Maritime Marine officers on board the DSV's/barges considered this to be in error.
For my part as an old codger the important thing for a diver is to be seen both submerged and when on the surface, so I couldn't give a damn what flag is flown on the surface marker or on the dive support boat, just as long as it is obvious. It is, however, vital that in order to comply with the internationally accepted Collision Regulations no matter where in the world, the only internationally recognised signal for " I have a diver down and you should keep clear of me " is the single flag code Alpha.
I shall now put on my hard hat and steel toed boots and await the fury.
 
At the risk of killing this thread would it be a hardship to just fly both? When I am diving I would fly anything, including a pair of my grannies knickers if I thought it would stop some muppet hitting me with his prop.
 
NormanS said:
It just seems so stupid and unnecessary to re-invent something which already works, and thereby cause confusion, and danger.:mad:
Click to expand...

I'm afraid that this is just one example of the fact that for so many things there is an "International Standard" and a "US Standard". Marine VHF channels for example, household mains voltage, wire gauges etc. etc.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top