Paying/contributing crew

toad_oftoadhall said:
Rules here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2771/regulation/2/made

Assuming they're "friends" they can make a contribution to the direct costs of the time you're sailing.

So you'd need to become friends over the phone or e-mail before the trip, I'd be interested if there's ever been a case where someone was determined not to be a "friend". I doubt it.
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"people who've responded to postings on crewing sites and joined me to help crew the boat."

Friends?
 
Camelia said:
My drinks cabinet always welcomes a new bottle, especially if it is a single malt I've not tasted before. Perhaps you could have an empty drinks cabinet/wine cellar/tab behind the bar.
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I have a similar fare structure, entirely voluntary but much appreciated.
 
concentrik said:
I think probably the 'friends' part of this thread isn't relevant. The matter seems to about whether the boat is in commercial use. If it is being used as a 'pleasure vessel' as defined by the regs, then the regs don't apply.
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Right, but the relevant requirements for being a pleasure vessel include:

in the case of a vessel wholly owned by an individual or individuals, used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner
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You easily comply with all the other requirements to be a pleasure vessel, so - far from being irrelevant - whether or not your crew are friends is the very crux of the problem.

My understanding has always been that this requirement was treated fairly loosely, and provided a trip was a bona fide pleasure excursion for a group of people not a disguised commercial venture, the closeness of the friendship wasn't really questioned. But I must admit that Daka's post has introduced some doubts.

Pete
 
concentrik said:
Having read the regs


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2771/regulation/2/made


more closely I think probably the 'friends' part of this thread isn't relevant. The matter seems to about whether the boat is in commercial use. If it is being used as a 'pleasure vessel' as defined by the regs, then the regs don't apply.
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I believe you are wrong. The "regs" for coding NOT being required, need both parts of the section defining Pleasure Vessel to be satisfied.

Extract : [I“pleasure vessel” means–
(a)

any vessel which at the time it is being used is:

(i)
(aa) in the case of a vessel wholly owned by an individual or individuals, used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner; or
(bb) in the case of a vessel owned by a body corporate, used only for sport or pleasure and on which the persons on board are employees or officers of the body corporate, or their immediate family or friends; and

(ii) on a voyage or excursion which is one for which the owner does not receive money for or in connection with operating the vessel or carrying any person, other than as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion; or [/I]

The people you are taking out are not immediate family or friends. So regardless of payment or not, your case fails. You are contravening The Merchant Shipping (Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) Regulations 1998.
 
I'm not sure that the clause means you can only take out family or friends. Does it not mean that the condition is satisfied if it is being used by owner Or family OR friends. For example I lend the boat to my Dad.... thats OK I lend it to some friends..... that's OK. Or does it mean that only me, my family or friends can ever be on the boat, otherwise it's contravening?

I ask my Dad out, that's OK - but he brings his friend from the golf club who is dying to have a go.... He's not my friend. I've never met him. Do I have to say sorry, you're not a friend you can't come? Or what if I said to him you can only come if you promise to be my friend - he does, and we vow to be lifelong buddies?

PLEASE - I'm not having a pop at anyone who's joining in with this thread, just trying to tease out what it actually means. Earlier today I found reference to a UK court judgement which addressed the friend thing but I'm boggered if I can find it now, it seems to have disappeared from my history!
 
I also think it's charter. Fact is you're taking strangers out for money - not that there's anything wrong with that as sailing schools and those with coded boats will no doubt testify.

I appreciate you are probably just mitigating a few of the expenses of boat ownership, but I doubt many of the boats legitimately being chartered do more than that. Even sailing school boats are often run at a loss to the boat owner (i.e just defraying some expenses)

But hey - plenty of people do it, and I don't think there is a lot of risk involved. Everyone bends a few rules.
 
Stork_III said:
The "regs" for coding NOT being required, need both parts of the section defining Pleasure Vessel to be satisfied.
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I agree. As I read it people on board need to be friends.

However "Friend" isn't defined in the law and nobody has come forward with a case of someone being in the slightest trouble for breaching this law on the basis of a crew member not being a friend.

The dictionary makes it clear that there's no time limit of being a friend. The OP and the people he sails with meet 4 out of the five definitions.

Friend

noun
1.
a person attached to another by feelings of affection or personal regard.
2.
a person who gives assistance; patron; supporter: friends of the Boston Symphony.
3.
a person who is on good terms with another; a person who is not hostile: Who goes there? Friend or foe?
4.
a member of the same nation, party, etc.
5.
( initial capital letter ) a member of the Religious Society of Friends; a Quaker.

I see no evidence that it's not possible to be friends with someone you've just met to go sailing with and plenty of evidence that there's no time limit on friendship.

Interestingly, I'm sure there are people who have sailed with other people they have no personal regard for, haven't assisted are not on good terms with and are not of the same nationality! So they were running a commercial vessel when they did that!

How the OP proves this to his own satisfaction is beyond me. Worth calling the MCA [1] but I don't hold high hopes for a definitive answer.

[1] MCA Legal: 023 8032 9342 (http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/aboutus/contact07/mcga-atoz.htm)
 
obmij said:
I also think it's charter. Fact is you're taking strangers out for money - not that there's anything wrong with that as sailing schools and those with coded boats will no doubt testify.

I appreciate you are probably just mitigating a few of the expenses of boat ownership, but I doubt many of the boats legitimately being chartered do more than that. Even sailing school boats are often run at a loss to the boat owner (i.e just defraying some expenses)

But hey - plenty of people do it, and I don't think there is a lot of risk involved. Everyone bends a few rules.
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If a boat owner gets crew from Crewseekers and they make a contribution to the fuel, food, booze, berthing, ie. the consumables, this is not a mitigation of the cost of boat ownership. Do you need to have an alcohol licence if guests bring booze to a party at your home? Of course not, the hospitality aspect is being shared. The cost of running the boat lies with the owner.

The OP charges sufficient to defray the living costs but not the boating overheads. Definitely not a charter until he triples his rates.
 
Of course you don't need an alcohol licence if guests bring booze to a party at your home.

But if you advertise regularly for strangers to come to parties at your home, or garden shed for that matter, and you charge for entry, you would probably need to pay attention to the licencing act.

Anyway, a lot of people offer this kind of deal to 'crew'. Some undoubtedly subsidise their sailing activities and voyages and the purpose of advertising on crewseekers and the like is mainly for that reason.

I think the paying crew thing is largely harmless, but in the event that an insurance company had cause to examine why certain people were on a particular trip - it might be hard to support the non-commercial angle. OP asked for opinions and that's mine. If he doesn't agree or doesn't mind then fair enough. carry on!
 
Uricanejack said:
I have a similar fare structure, entirely voluntary but much appreciated.
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Then you probably wouldn't have appreciated the crew I had (once and once only) who bought a bottle for the duration of his stay and at the end, decanted it into a plastic bottle and packed it into his bag.
 
Earlier this year I brought back my recent purchase from the South of France.
Had a number of crew helping with this, many of them found on this site or from Crewseekers.
All I asked was they paid for their own food whilst on board,
ie shopping was split exactly by number of people on board. (Of course we could have bought our food individualy )
Apart from trying to make money, ie a charter why would crew helping you be expected to pay a share of expenses of the boat ?
Shurely you were going there anyway ? with or without them, Regardless of what the legal side is I see it as your operating a charter.
 
snowleopard said:
I believe the distinction applied by car insurance companies is that the owner shouldn't make a profit from the contributions.
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Yes - this also goes to the 'commercial' aspect. My first thought is that commerce implies profit and I've never had much success with that.....

I wonder if the difficulty I'm having in getting the 'definitive' answer is not because our collective brainpower is lacking but more a case of sloppy drafting by the legislators.

So I will write (not email) to the MCA today to ask them to clarify:

* The original question - do paying crew constitute a commercial arrangement and therefore bring the activity within the scope of the Act.
* If so, please walk me through the if...then...else logic of the Act, particularly the 'friends' aspect.
* Has there been any action taken against an individual boat owner over this specific matter and what was the outcome.

I'll send it later today. If you have any other points you think I should raise please post them.
 
Halcytwo said:
Earlier this year I brought back my recent purchase from the South of France.
Had a number of crew helping with this, many of them found on this site or from Crewseekers.
All I asked was they paid for their own food whilst on board,
ie shopping was split exactly by number of people on board. (Of course we could have bought our food individualy )
Apart from trying to make money, ie a charter why would crew helping you be expected to pay a share of expenses of the boat ?
Shurely you were going there anyway ? with or without them, Regardless of what the legal side is I see it as your operating a charter.
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This aspect is addressed by the Act at the heart of the discussion - whatever the owner's motivation, it is allowed:

(ii)

on a voyage or excursion which is one for which the owner does not receive money for or in connection with operating the vessel or carrying any person, other than as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion; or
 
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