Passage Plans

[KevB]

Not sure if this is allowed but you can download a basic passage planner / log book from here....

http://www.boatmart.co.uk/downloads/default.asp?action=software&Page=4

 

[Chris_Robb]

Seems quite sensible

5. Small vessels and pleasure craft - Regulation 34 applies to all vessels. For small vessels and pleasure-craft the degree of voyage planning will be depend upon the size of vessel, its crew and the length of the voyage. The MCA expects all mariners to make a careful assessment of any proposed voyage taking into account all dangers to navigation, weather forecasts, tidal predictions and other relevant factors including the competence of the crew.


Perhaps more people should do this - even the trip to Yarmouth - if they have not even looked at the tide tables or Forecast!

Wording looks sensible - would you seriously set out from Chichester to South Brittany without a certain amount of planning and contingency planning - Lets have some prosecutions of the ones who are too bloody lazy or ignornant and rely on others to risk their lives to save them.

 

[hlb]

Re: Seems quite sensible

Your missing the point. Most of us sus the job out first in whatever way and write down some place, the things we are likely to forget. The point every one is trying to get at is. Now that it's a LAW. What are we supossed to do or not do. Is back of fag packet, or just in head, good enough. Or must it be written down to some formular. We dont all need the same information. For instance I hardly ever need to know what times the tides are. It's all deap water and at 20 odd knots, I'm not bothered which way it's going. So for me a little trip from Plymouth to Falmouth, only 40 miles, does not need much planning cos I'm there in two hours and it would be difficult to get lost. But whats the interpretation of the law??

No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!

Haydn

 

[escape]

Re: Seems quite sensible

Interpretation of the law is the responsability that Judges are supposed to be charged with !
And they are meant to apply it as if they were ''the man on the Clapham omnibus''
As you can guess from the use of omnibus this is a relatively old guide but still applicable.
Therfore I would act reasonably dependant on all the circumstances ie distance/time to travel,weather,tidal gates,strength of crew etc and prepare whatever plan seens reasonable.
Turning to traffic routes and notifying the CG this info is not only used for your safety but for others.You may only be going 10 mile up the coast but if they get a report of a potential incident along your route they can call and ask if you have seen anything.
For this reason i sometimes put in tr's for short trips when in very quiet times/out of season.
What do the team think?

 

[hlb]

Re: Seems quite sensible

But it dont say anything about telling the coast guards. Only about having a plan. So thats no good. But before you can follow a law, you need to know what it is. Like 30MPH speed limit. Or even two pints of beer (Maybe?) Wha t we want to know is. If a bloke with big silly hat walks up on July first and says. " Can I see your passage plan" It's no good saying. " I radio'd it to Falmouth coast guards. Is it.

No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!

Haydn

 

[Miker]

I agree

...but then I would being a retired civil servant. I would have thought that you jot something down based on your judgement of the detail required for the voyage and then defend it in a court of law if prosecuted by the "man in the silly hat". Isn't that how case law gets established?
However, if I have to prepare a passage plan for Fleetwood to Piel Island across Morecambe Bay, I might think differently. The regs say that inside a line from Rossall Point to Humphry Head is a pond, not a sea, but where is Humphry Head?
I do have a spreadsheet which plots tide times and directions against predicted waypoints and boat speeds, so that will be my defence Mi Lud.

 

[SloopJohnB]

Why all the controversy. If you are inland or a river you don’t seem to need a passage plan, if your not – you do. What’s the problem?
Seem to remember lesson 3, Day Skipper course, “prepare a passage plan”. Clearly different boats will need to make different plans – so what?
Motor boats doing 20 knots don’t have to think about much apart from whether they have enough fuel and G and T and is their Seastart membership up to date. Yachts needs to think about a lot more.
Why should we not be required to think safety before departing. Doesn’t everybody?
Why should the rescue services be called out to people who don’t have a clue, like that guy who was rescued umpteen times who never had a lesson in his life and used a road atlas to navigate.
Doesn’t anyone “official” in the RYA read this forum and would they care to comment?

 

[halcyon]

Why should the RYA get involved with merchant shipping regs.


Brian

 

[l'escargot]

Why is this being complicated by everyone, it seems so simple.

Refer to guidance notes:

(5) "......for small vessels and pleasure-craft the degree of voyage
planning will be depend upon the size of vessel, its crew and the length of
the voyage. The MCA expects all mariners to make a careful assessment of any
proposed voyage taking into account all dangers to navigation, weather
forecasts, tidal predictions and other relevant factors including the
competence of the crew."


(Think to myself......)

Today I will plan my passage - A nice day, not too much wind, I'll go to Lymington. I know my way, it's not too windy - I'll sail. It's high tide at 3 pm, I am competent at handling my boat and the fuel tank is full if I need to motor. I have adequate safety equipment on board. I go.

I am under no obligation to write it down, tell anyone or do anything other than I've before - where's the problem?

 

[SloopJohnB]

Brian
Any regs or other legislation that involves yachts etc is the business of the RYA isnt it? Maybe there is some advice/article etc penned by the RYA available. if so, where is it.? The RYA mentioned in this thread doesnt seem to refer definitively as far as I can see. Clearly Haydn isnt satisfied either.

 

[halcyon]

But the regs appear to concern Megayachts over 300ton or there abouts, and rectreational craft used for commercial purposes.
Small yachts come under the current voluntary systems.


Brian

 

[poter]

I agree. Exactly my point... NM

.

 

[SloopJohnB]

Brian,
I dont follow you
Does not the guidance note to regulation 34 state

“Small vessels and pleasure craft - Regulation 34 applies to all vessels. For small vessels and pleasure-craft the degree of voyage planning will be depend upon the size of vessel, its crew and the length of the voyage. The MCA expects all mariners to make a careful assessment of any proposed voyage taking into account all dangers to navigation, weather forecasts, tidal predictions and other relevant factors including the competence of the crew.”

Surely it is not unreasonable to anticipate that the RYA will give guidance inc to what extent these regulations affect pleasure craft and a summary of their legal obligations. Does anyone know whether such a guidance exists if, as I understand it, this all comes into force on 1st July next. Have I missed something in recent yachting mags inc YM?

 

[poter]

Re: Seems quite sensible. No it ain\'t.

The regulation wording is very ambiguous. No mention is made as to whom one reports to, or how detailed the plan has to be or even what form it should be in. Also who is to inforce the regulation & what are the consequences… is it a slap on the wrist or a fine or even jail?

I agree that any one going to sea should have an idea of what they are doing and be aware of safety, but if, as a previous thread mentioned, I post a piece of paper on the boat stating that I’m leaving Dartmouth and attempting to cross the Salcomb bar at low tide, am I complying with the reg. or is someone going to pop up and say don’t be stupid?
What if you get out of harbour and the wind changes, do you keep to the plan or have a nice easy cruise somewhere else. Do you then have to inform someone?
What if I am in a yacht that’s say caught in mid channel in a bad storm and decide to head back to a safe port. The plan goes out the window……….. and so on!
It’s a friggin mess!

Most if not all the seafarers on this board are sensible and would be aware of the dangers of going to sea in say a F10, like driving at 100mph of a foggy motorway, you just don’t do it, unless you are completely brain dead.

It all gets rather ridiculous and out of hand IMHO & I think the powers that be, are putting a regulation on the books that is completely unworkable. The only trouble is some poor sod is going to get caught.

What’s next – speed camera’s for stinkpots? ( hmmm!!! maybe that’s not such a bad idea, I wonder if the Euro parliament would take that up…. Now where’s my fax paper )


Poter.

 

[halcyon]

Digging around the site for definitions they refer to pleasure craft used for commercial purposes, pleasure craft for private pleasure remain under the voluntary codes. This is why you have seen nothing in the media or RYA.

On the other hand passage planning is what you do anyway, if going Falmouth to Fowey, you plan tide to clear Dodman and enter Fowey, check weather, make note of dangers and whats the best course to avoid them with the current wind and currents, etc.

Thinking though, that is if we take our yacht, if we go in mates motorboat, we just cast of and go with no planning bar arranging to be there for dinner. So it proves there is a big differance between the two!!!!


Brian

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Seems quite sensible

Haydn - partially missed the point, and I agree that I don't want - or need any legal enforcement to do it.

I did miss the point that we are meant to file a passage plan with the coastguard. This really is boncers for a short day sail - ie Plymouth to Falmouth (7 hours) not as fast as you. I have never yet filed a passage plan even for 2 or 3 day trips, I suppose it might be sensible, but it reduces the feeling of being on your own, and responsible for everything you do.

I rarely keep a log book, with each days plan written out on an A4 clipboard which gets chucked away at the end of the trip. As something like this will probably only be enforced after an event, as there will be no extra resource to police it, I will have absolutley nothing to show, other than the engine hours log I keep!

 

[hlb]

Re: Seems quite sensible

Cris. The point as I see it is this. Nothings going to happen much untill there is some form of accident. and a court case. Before a judge that may know nothing about the sea. So the barister asks you for your passage plan. Maybe you can find your bit of paper. But is it good enough. Is it in the right format. The judge after being told that it's unlawfull not to have one, already thinks your a bit iffy, so your already on the way to loosing the case, whatever it was. Yet you still dont know exactly what you were supposed to have in the first place.

The other point you mantioned. Radio coast guards with passage plan. I used to do it some times, but have now given up. It's pointless.
I left Plymouth for Guernsey, radio'd a safty message to Brixham coast guards. On arival at Guernsey I forgot To radio them, that I'd arrived. Latter when I remembered, I went through a lot of trouble. Finding a phone box and there number. Rang them and asked if they would pass the message on to Brixham. Didn't want them panicking and sending out surch party. But he said they dont do anything with the info. Less some one rings up and says your missing. Well in my case that might be in three or four weeks maybe more. So a fat lot of good that would be!!

No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!

Haydn

 

[Miker]

Re: Seems quite sensible. Yes it is.

Are you expecting regulations that cover every instance that can happen? I am sure that the traffic regulations do not specify how exactly I should drive around the back lanes near my village or even on a motorway but I can still be prosecuted for dangerous driving or driving without due care and attention. Mind you, I was a bit surprised when someone was prosecuted for eating an apple while driving.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: I always wondered

Haydn - Interesting that the coastguard do nothing with it!! I suppose its what I had suspected which is why I've bothered!

I agree with your scenario of the courtcase - it may be that you are just a witness to an acident, and don't relaise till the wheel has turned that they want the evidence of your log book - which of course I threw away. Now they throw the book at me for not having kept a log.

We did get asked for a copy of our log 3 years ago when we were thought to be the last people who had seen a small fishing boat near the Needles before it was found capsised. We had a professional photograher on board who had actually taken some shots of this boat, plus others that were in the area, and by blowing up the transparencies we managed to give the investigators the name of 2 other boats. So yes - we coul;d be standing their with our trowers down.

Actually I quite envy people who keep detailed logs - it would be interested in 10 to 15 years time to go back over them as memories (All I'll have by then!) But i'm just not that type.

 

[HMCG]

Re: Seems quite sensible. No it ain\'t.

quote
Most if not all the seafarers on this board are sensible and would be aware of the dangers of going to sea in say a F10, like driving at 100mph of a foggy motorway, you just don?t do it, unless you are completely brain dead.
end quote

Are you suggesting that only subscribers to this board go to sea? Just as there are people who drive at 100mph on the morotway in fog there are people who do set to sea in dangerous conditions.

On the topic of who should be given your passage plan....as far as I can tell adn am aware the plan is for your own use not to give to anyone. I have waled the hills of scotland for years and always made a plan of where I was going. That does not mean to say that I gave it to anyone, it was to allow me to plan for any problems I may have encountered.

As the reg states the amount of planning will depend on the vessel, crew and passage. Before walking to the shops you make a mental passage plan, you decide which route to take and if you should take a jacket with you. If you are sailing from the uk to new zealand you make a more extensive plan. at the end of the day they are both plans but are specific to the task at hand.

These are my thoughts.......not the those of my employer.




Remember a VHF can save your life.