Passage Planning Software

[Ingwe]

To do all the calculations that the OP wants requires a lot of processing power as most NAV software works everything out by brute force, I think Expedition would be the closest thing to what you want - but would be an extremely expensive way to do it. Of the cheaper options if you have either an android phone or tablet try "SailGrib WR" - there is a free version which you can try out before purchasing the main app, it will do about 80% of what the OP wanted - but as far as I am aware it won't work out what the optimal time to set off is to reach a certain point at a particular time, I suspect they haven't made this possible due to how long it would take to calculate.

 

[prv]

This of course is nonsense. Any active ETA calculation worth anything uses the real time average speed (not the "expected" speed)

Fortunately, my car navigation doesn't just use my average speed so far, but the expected speed based on type of road and the speeds of other vehicles driving on it, both historical averages and realtime reports. Otherwise it would be giving me a distressingly long ETA to Wales while I'm still crawling through central Southampton, and conversely would be far too optimistic about how long it will take to get to Heathrow in rush hour.

Of course ShinyShoe's notional system doesn't have feedback from other boats, but it ought to be able to use predicted tidal stream and weather (especially wind strength and direction) to inform its calculations.

I don't see any serious technical obstacle to this, it's just that plotter software development is a tiny cottage industry compared to Google Maps and they haven't got round to it yet.

Pete

 

[ylop]

It's simple - how much extra are you prepared to pay for this feature?

 

[prv]

It's simple - how much extra are you prepared to pay for this feature?

Exactly. The reasons aren't technical, but market / strategy.

Pete

 

[Playtime]

Fortunately, my car navigation doesn't just use my average speed so far, but the expected speed based on type of road and the speeds of other vehicles driving on it, both historical averages and realtime reports.

Pete

Of course, for an in car Sat Nav that is what I would expect; it's certainly how mine works. However, in the context of the quote in my previous post i.e. chartplotter ETA estimation on the water, then I stand by my statement.

 

[Hereward]

Sorry to revive a one-year old discussion, but just wondering if anyone has looked at this software package:

http://www.neptune-navigation.com/

Seems to do most of what the OP was mentioning albeit for quite a price. Is it as good as it claims?

 

[Blue Sunray]

Sorry to revive a one-year old discussion, but just wondering if anyone has looked at this software package:

http://www.neptune-navigation.com/

Seems to do most of what the OP was mentioning albeit for quite a price. Is it as good as it claims?

I was looking at it and a google search (neptune navigation site:ybw.com) threw up some favourable comments albeit from a few years back. I has a play with the trial version back in March and it seemed good, but decided to wait from the promised Android variant to be released. At the time their website advertised this as being due in Spring 2018, around June they changed this to 'Release Summer 2018'. I don't regard it as a particularly urgent requirement so I still intend to wait.

 

[[163233]]

Is the tidal information known accurately enough to actually do this to the level of precision a plotter would imply?

A tidal diamond the other side of a spit, or a narrow sound may get quite different tide even where it's the nearest mark by a long way. Currents are perhaps even more complex if you want it to do CTS.

 

[Cactus Sailing]

I was looking at it and a google search (neptune navigation site:ybw.com) threw up some favourable comments albeit from a few years back. I has a play with the trial version back in March and it seemed good, but decided to wait from the promised Android variant to be released. At the time their website advertised this as being due in Spring 2018, around June they changed this to 'Release Summer 2018'. I don't regard it as a particularly urgent requirement so I still intend to wait.

£34.95 annually including charts apparently, Navionics would be relegated as soon as it was released, ideally id love it on Apple but ah well...

of course i still use traditional navigation but when the computer agrees its a nice reassurance, a bit like checking my tax return with a calculator.

https://www.savvy-navvy.com/ looks interesting too, according to their developers this will be released late 2018 with wind and weather incorporated along with tides and everything else,, interesting times indeed, their demo version has taken away live weather recently so looks like its progressing

 

[KAL]

I (and I suspect a lot of others) have been using Neptune for many years. It is a proper passage-planner, and has a route optimisation feature that calculates the estimated times of passages across set departure hours, so you can plan the best time to depart in order to make the best passage time. It can take winds into account if you download a grib file. It also works out a CTS taking wind, tidal streams and est boat speed into account. It’s also AIS compatible. It allows you to see the tidal curve for any tide station and you can move a cursor to see projected tide height at any given time. There are a few minor embuggerance, such as having to select the chart manually, as it doesn’t scroll between the seamlessly, but it’s an excellent package, overall, and I do recommend it.

In answer to the question about tidal heights at bars, I diverted into Salcombe a few days ago and my plotter, running Navionics, gave me the usual helpful tide height at the bar, live, to which I could refer as I approached. Having not intended to call into Salcombe, it was rough as rats, approaching low-ish water and it was good to see that I would have enough water to get over the bar without delving below to check heights manually on a reeds curve.

As usual, I exercised prudence and caution and took every available factor into consideration when making the decision, but the plotter (B&G Vulcan) gave me the info I needed instantly. I’m sure the OP’s would do the same?

 

[Blue Sunray]

I (and I suspect a lot of others) have been using Neptune for many years. It is a proper passage-planner, and has a route optimisation feature that calculates the estimated times of passages across set departure hours, so you can plan the best time to depart in order to make the best passage time. It can take winds into account if you download a grib file. It also works out a CTS taking wind, tidal streams and est boat speed into account. It’s also AIS compatible. It allows you to see the tidal curve for any tide station and you can move a cursor to see projected tide height at any given time. There are a few minor embuggerance, such as having to select the chart manually, as it doesn’t scroll between the seamlessly, but it’s an excellent package, overall, and I do recommend it.

Can I ask what you run it on and do you have it on more than one machine?

 

[KAL]

I have an 11” Dell running Win10 which I take on board for longer passages. I use a 12v car power supply to keep it going if it needs a boost during a crossing.

I also keep a paper plot going and the plotter at the helm is independent. Navionics on my phone if needed as backup, but also a basic hand-held basic GPS in case in case in case.

Neptune are more than happy to license the home PC as well as the boat one, so you can plan off the boat. They are extremely helpful.

 

[Blue Sunray]

I have an 11” Dell running Win10 which I take on board for longer passages. I use a 12v car power supply to keep it going if it needs a boost during a crossing.

I also keep a paper plot going and the plotter at the helm is independent. Navionics on my phone if needed as backup, but also a basic hand-held basic GPS in case in case in case.

Neptune are more than happy to license the home PC as well as the boat one, so you can plan off the boat. They are extremely helpful.

VMT

 

[alant]

Am I missing a trick?

Say I want to sail from Port A to Port B. Port A has a bar on the harbour and I need to make sure I have enough water to get out. I then sail out to waypoint C, D and E to navigate round a headland before turning back in towards Port B, which also has a bar or maybe a marina that only opens its locks certain times around high water.

A plotter can handle all of that for me showing me what I'm doing and where my pre-determined waypoints are, bearings to them etc.

But while it shows charted depth... If I was at Waypoint C and and click on Waypoint D, it tells me its on a bearing of 100N but doesn't say "you wont have enough water" - why not?

• Water depth is (reasonably) predictable
• Passage times are predictable based on weather and tidal flow, both of which are (reasonably) predictable

So instead before I leave A, I make a load of predictions on paper using various sources of information. All prone to transcription error and calculation error. I leave port but as I'm heading to waypoint C I turn to avoid other shipping. The bearing to WPT is updated on the plotter for me to steer a new course. But underway, short handed, do I have time to recheck depths along the way? To recalculate not only if I can make it to Waypoint C, but if my deviation to avoid shipping has then delayed my arrival enough by "re-modelling" the remainder of the passage to affect by ability to get into B.

Its all just based on looking up information and doing some calculations. Thats what computers do well...

So am I missing a feature on some plotters that can do this? And if not why not?

If you want it all done for you on a computer, you may as well go by bus.
Why bother, we'll want sybian sailing next

 

[alant]

Tidal calculations and various aspects of passage -planning/navigation are half the fun of boating. Things do not happen so fast at sea that you don't have time to review your pilotage plan.
Besides, using your brain instead of electronics keeps it active and helps to ward off the approach of dementia.

+1

 

[alant]

It is. You are absolutely right.

But I think it depends a LOT on your waters. If you are crossing the channel you only care about start and finish. If you are sailing round the IoW you might want to know about depths over various sand banks etc.

If you then add in the effect of tidal flow you might find the half hour delay caused by avoiding a ship, wind being slightly less than forecast or being late out of harbour then affects your progress by more than half an hour because you are now against a tide you had been hoping to be at slack. Understanding how all that plays into each other is what passage planning is about.

My work involves calculations on a daily minutely basis. I can do all that by hand if I need to. But 99% of the time a computer does it.

The fact that you wouldn't have used it- doesn't mean no-one would use it.

I suspect the legal issues may be part of it... ..."Your honour, Mr Garmin said there was enough water so I sailed on and broke my boat, I now want £1m compensation" "Your honour, Mr Garmin clearly stated in the 83 page disclaimer that came in the box with it that it will tell you if there is not enough water, rather than there is enough water"...

Can it be done in OpenCPN? It would need vector charts - which has been a limitation till recently in UK waters. OpenCPN can alert to landfall using a plugin.

I guess the other issue is scale of the chart - a small scale chart wont show enough detail to know there isn't enough water?

For tacking etc - I was anticipating that it would know the weather, know you'd be tacking and so would need to create a 1/2mile wide 'zone' rather than a thin blue line. It would need to identify any depth issues in the zone... This is what we do with our eyes without really thinking about it - we scan for obstructions...

Are the calculated "depths over sand bars" going to be any more reliable using a electronic box?
They do have a nasty habit of shifting.

 

[TSB240]

£34.95 annually including charts apparently, Navionics would be relegated as soon as it was released, ideally id love it on Apple but ah well...

of course i still use traditional navigation but when the computer agrees its a nice reassurance, a bit like checking my tax return with a calculator.

https://www.savvy-navvy.com/ looks interesting too, according to their developers this will be released late 2018 with wind and weather incorporated along with tides and everything else,, interesting times indeed, their demo version has taken away live weather recently so looks like its progressing

Funny

I was just having a look at Savvy Navy . I cant get my mind as to how this is going to work much better than the very simple Navionics auto routing.

Let us say I lose my wifi and 3g signal an hour out of port on a 15 hour crossing.

How is it going to give me up to date full weather passage routing for the next 14 hours until I get another wifi or 3g signal as I near my destination?

Tides perhaps can be excepted as they can be predicted but thinking the predicted wind pattern will not vary during those 14 hours and lack of updates will surely mislead any operator.

I think the sum of £100s of pounds a year for this app is wildly optimistic for the potential benefit.

 

[jwilson]

Fortunately, my car navigation doesn't just use my average speed so far, but the expected speed based on type of road and the speeds of other vehicles driving on it, both historical averages and realtime reports. Otherwise it would be giving me a distressingly long ETA to Wales while I'm still crawling through central Southampton, and conversely would be far too optimistic about how long it will take to get to Heathrow in rush hour.
...snipped

Pete

Clearly you don't have a Volvo with their own Sensus satnav - it idiotically DOES base ETA on recent/current speeds, not predicted ones like most decent road satnavs do. Leave one city in slow traffic, ridiculously long ETA, once on fast road ETA shrinks more and more, but then if the last 15 miles is also slow it assumes you'll go through mile after mile of 30 mph limit and traffic lights at 65-70.

For marine use on mobos auto passage planning might mostly work, but so many variables with sailing yachts.....

 

[Cactus Sailing]

Funny

I was just having a look at Savvy Navy . I cant get my mind as to how this is going to work much better than the very simple Navionics auto routing.

Let us say I lose my wifi and 3g signal an hour out of port on a 15 hour crossing.

How is it going to give me up to date full weather passage routing for the next 14 hours until I get another wifi or 3g signal as I near my destination?

Tides perhaps can be excepted as they can be predicted but thinking the predicted wind pattern will not vary during those 14 hours and lack of updates will surely mislead any operator.

I think the sum of £100s of pounds a year for this app is wildly optimistic for the potential benefit.

£100 is far too much! they've only just released the price but i wouldn't pay that.

i would say anyone solely relying on Savvy navvy for a decent lengthy passage would be an irresponsible skipper, its just another tool in the box to pick from, a pricey one at that.

 

[Manic76]

My passage planning skills are a little rusty, is there a decent passage planning product out there that will help to validate my plans and which won't cost as much as PC Planner, Neptune et al?