Part 3 Registration??

[14K478]

Sometimes you cannot win.

Ships almost always carry a copy of the Guide to Port Entry, a master work published in two thick volumes every six months (by Lloyds Register, actually, although they sell it under a different brand name) which lists exactly what documents each and every port in the world wants from a visiting vessel. Our ships all have it on board.

A few years ago we started taking bunkers in Vladivostok - it was cheap enough to make it worth while to call in en route to the USA from East Asia. All went well until…

… ship enters port. Agent comes on board and tells Master he had to take the trading certificates folder ashore so it can be checked…

Two hours later Customs come on board and demand the certificates… on being told that the Agent has them they fine the ship US$5,000.00 on the spot for not having them available!

I’ve since learned that other ports use the same scam.

 

[14K478]

Generally port officials are invariably very professional IME. But lots of ways to make life easier. Have the docs they require, polo shirt, shaved & long trousers, be very nice, make a show of trying to speak some local language from google translate, listen to the local radio - if they won the cricket the day before slip that in.. All pushes the odds for an easy life in your favour

All ships afaik keep their trading certificates in a book with clear plastic envelope “pages” that the certificate can be slipped into.

If you do the same, everything is in one place and the Customs or whoever take it as a sign of professionalism.

 

[GHA]

All ships afaik keep their trading certificates in a book with clear plastic envelope “pages” that the certificate can be slipped into.

If you do the same, everything is in one place and the Customs or whoever take it as a sign of professionalism.

Similar here, SSR, insurance, VHF license, several crew list copies even though single handed.
And a robust reminder to never, ever, ever lose your cool

 

[Tranona]

Sorry I haven't explained fully. Now forget Part 1 and 3 for the purpose of the dialogue. I realise my original question is redundant.

One is at the mercy of officials weather you're doing what's "normal" or not. That is evidenced by my own experience and the variant behaviours of officials, particularly in Greece, Italy and Portugal as recently reported in forums and through the remedial work of the Cruising Association.

The buck stops with the individual when he or she has to know the facts, rather than the second order opinions and assertions of forum posters. Knowing the facts starts with being able to find and understand the source law. So where is that?

I agree Part 1 is a 'proper' option and I might finish up with that. In my particular case an Irish CiD is likely to be a better option that I would like to consider. It comes with some significant benefits that Part 1 does not offer. Intially, to make my decision I need the source law or laws. Later, when I meet an errant official I need to quote the source law.

I'm simply asking and hoping that some knowledgable person can direct me to an official source on which their assertions are based, as I'm having difficulty in finding it. And maybe offer some advise on how to use it. As you might appreciate this is likely to be EU and international law rather than any UK law relating to UK registration.

Any input will be much appreciated.

The CiD only certifies ownership, not flag state which determines the law that governs the operation of the ship. The requirement of flag state (nationality of the ship) is what is required when voyaging internationally and navigating foreign territorial waters. Evidence of ownership is secondary and is not what port officials are looking for. Part 3 registration is not evidence of ownership as it is based on self declaration rather than evidenced title but still meets the flag state requirement.

This may help you as a starting point to find sources of this universally accepted registration requirement. Appreciate that it is not a primary source but a link to other more authoritative sources.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_registration

 

[dunedin]

I and others I've met have to frequently challenge the guys in uniform, respectfully and fully equiped with the facts and source law. If you've recently sailed in Greece or Italy with an EU passport, a UK flag, UK resident with a 3rd country spouse and with Union Goods status you will understand what I mean.

Noonsite is not source and has been proven wrong in many cases. In particular, as Tranona say, you do not have to carry original registration. It may be advisable, but Noonsite does not say that. This is a good example of why one should not trust intermediate opinion and assertion and why I want the source.

Noonsite is bound to be wrong from time to time as it's maintained through reports from members that discovery inconsistancies.

What is the source law?

if you believe everybody else’s advice on having registration documents is unnecessary then the onus is surely on you to source the international laws you are wanting to rely on.
The rest of us are happy to take our Part 3 or Part 1 documents, which we know work, and be done with it.

 

[Tranona]

Sorry I haven't explained fully. Now forget Part 1 and 3 for the purpose of the dialogue. I realise my original question is redundant.

One is at the mercy of officials weather you're doing what's "normal" or not. That is evidenced by my own experience and the variant behaviours of officials, particularly in Greece, Italy and Portugal as recently reported in forums and through the remedial work of the Cruising Association.

I'm simply asking and hoping that some knowledgable person can direct me to an official source on which their assertions are based, as I'm having difficulty in finding it. And maybe offer some advise on how to use it. As you might appreciate this is likely to be EU and international law rather than any UK law relating to UK registration.

Your examples here are not in any way comparable with International Maritime Law and practice.

The disputes you refer to are specifically about EU states either introducing local law that is not consistent with EU law or more commonly local implementation of EU law that is incorrect. while not always straightforward these disputes can be resolved (or not) through a clear procedure with the European Commission.

On the other hand you are now trying to challenge internationally accepted practices where there is no dispute about the legality, either in international law or in state laws.

As compliance with the law (wherever it comes from) is so relatively easy, one has to ask the question Why?

A secondary consideration is why do all states follow this set of "rules" and incorporate them in their own laws?

 

[14K478]

Thanks for the correction on the differences between the certificate and register.

The UK Register of Ships is, technically, a Torrens system.

You may recall that Joseph Conrad became a full time novelist because he was the Chief Officer of the passenger clipper “Torrens”, and on a voyage from Sydney to London he fell into conversation with John Galsworthy who was a passenger aboard her.

She was a brilliantly successful ship which ran between Britain and Australia for thirty years. She was named after this chap:

Robert Richard Torrens - Wikipedia

who gave us the system of real property title named after him:

Torrens title - Wikipedia

Amusingly perhaps, the UK brought in the Torrens Title system for ship registration before England brought in the same system for land registration in the 1920s. The Land Registry was copied from the Ship Registry.

 

[14K478]

As compliance with the law (wherever it comes from) is so relatively easy, one has to ask the question Why?

A secondary consideration is why do all states follow this set of "rules" and incorporate them in their own laws?

Good question!

Blame the “Titanic” and the Collision Regulations.

The Collision Regulations were the subject of a Diplomatic Conference held in Paris in the 1860s. Sailing ships didn’t need Collision Regulations because they tended to sail with the wind, so on more or less the same direction, and when they did “run aboard” each other, their relative speeds were small, as was the damage. Bowsprits and their rigging were effective shock absorbers!

All this changed with the iron screw steam ship… and the 1863 Conference produced a Convention, because ship’s meeting on converging courses at sea might be owned in different countries (“duh!”).

The loss of life with the sinking of the “Titanic” caused an outcry which led to the Safety of Life at Sea (“SOLAS”) Convention.

And others followed particularly after the International Maritime Consultative Organisation (“IMCO”) now the International Maritime Organisation (“IMO”) was set up in London as a United Nations Agency after WW2.

If we think about it, it’s obvious that shipping being an international business must be regulated by the same laws everywhere, and the way to do this is to standardise laws under international conventions.

eg:

https://www.imo.org/en/OurWork/Lega...hips-and-fraudulent-registration-matters.aspx

So that’s why.

Aircraft are the same.

Other things are not.

One reason why nuclear ships are vanishingly rare is that nuclear reactors are NOT regulated by laws standardised by International Conventions so a nuclear ship gets different rules for reactor safety everywhere she goes!