Parking with twin rudders

Not all boats with twin rudders are suitable for bow thrusters. A friend has recently sold his Winner 8 metre which he found very difficult within the confines of SYH or Bradwell. I haven't tried one myself but one wrinkle which most people will surely know is that you can tighten your turning-circle greatly by engaging reverse during the turn. I only mention it because I have sailed with some who appear to have been surprised when I did it, though it is a routine I have been using for longer than I can remember.
 
Scala said:
That definitely works with single rudders. Was shown it 20+ years ago by a YM instructor we hired to try and get a wayward Nicholson to steer reliably at all under power!
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Interesting - it's a technique I used frequently on our previous boat but have never tried on the new one - I was not sure if it was something specific to twin rudder boats.
 
You need water flow over the rudders to turn. In the absence of prop wash this means adequate speed through the water. faster than on single rudder boats. You will find that prop walk still develops when when going astern so if you're going into a berth bows in then going astern to help stop will bring the stern in to the pontoon (if you go in on the correct side of course).
When i go in astern I have the forward line led back from the bow to the stern so i can step off at the stern with it, put the stern line on then pull the boat in if the bow goes walkabout. Practice makes almost perfect.
 
flaming said:
I'm very much the designated driver... Owner normally isn't on deck for marina stuff and sometimes isn't on the boat. I'm normally very confident with parking but this is very different animal to the traditional cruiser racers I've been used to, so just after some tips.

Not going out when it's windy isn't really an option, as we're here to race. So I'll have to figure out a way of making it work. Luckily the thing is light enough to be manhandled around, so suspect the rest of this season is going to be a mix of selecting an easy berth (we're in a pen with somewhat "free for all" berthing rather than finger pontoons) and using strong people to shove it where it needs to go combined with plenty of fenders...
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In that case whilst you are getting to know the boat, what I would do in your situation is go in forwards with a fender right up by the bow. You are going to find that you also lose steerage at low speeds forwards so when trying to fit into tight spaces go in slow at a slightly more acute angle than you would normally and use the bow fender to kick the bow out / stern in, because you may find you don't have enough steerage to do the tight turn that you would normally do at the end.

Then use muscle power / springs if you need them to get back out in reverse as that will be easier to plan.
 
flaming said:
The new boat has twin rudders. And on the first attempt at parking it's fair to say I made something of a hash of it, simply couldn't get the stern to turn in (parking backwards as will be the norm) and then couldn't straighten her out by going forwards either.... Luckily it's a featherweight boat and I had plenty of crew muscle on hand to spare my blushes...
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I've never understood why anyone reverses a sail boat (without a bow thruster) into a marina berth. It is so much easier to screw up than when going forwards into the gap on a boat with one rudder, let alone with two.

But, looking around my marina (and including the pontoons where you are berthed), the yachts that are berthed stern to the main pontoon tend to fall into two groups: racers and charter boats. The vast majority of cruisers (like me) tend to be moored "bows in".

Why is that? For the racers, is it easier to get sails off for packing away and/or for reloading any cruising gear removed for the race? I'm guessing that the charter cos like it that way because it seems more welcoming for the next charterer.
 
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I always go in stern first if I can (but I have a b/t). Reason is that we have a fold down transom / "swim platform" which makes boarding and pontoon access etc very easy (and sociable). Also, although this does depend a lot on the berth, I usually find it easier to position myself for arrival somewhere I can get sternwards under control (ie a bit of a run up) whereas reversing out there's less chance of that.... minimal steerage until at least say half a boat length.
 
Scala said:
I always go in stern first if I can (but I have a b/t). Reason is that we have a fold down transom / "swim platform" which makes boarding and pontoon access etc very easy (and sociable). Also, although this does depend a lot on the berth, I usually find it easier to position myself for arrival somewhere I can get sternwards under control (ie a bit of a run up) whereas reversing out there's less chance of that.... minimal steerage until at least say half a boat length.
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I take your point about the modern fold down transom. But, I don't find reversing out a problem, even with little steerage, because the wind will most likely be blowing the bow one way or the other and that is very predictable. All I then need to do is know whether I will be reversing out one way then driving forward, or reversing the whole way out.

In 13 years with Angele I haven't yet managed to mess up reversing off the berth, even with a strong tide running through the marina. But, my success rate on reversing into a finger berth is not good (and why I never do it).
 
Scala said:
Yes that's a good point. Would that be the same if you were twin rudders though?
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I think so, yes. I let the wind blow the bow off, whichever direction it is blowing. If it happens to blow the bow off such that I have to reverse the whole way out between the pontoons, then so be it. I'm only wanting to go in a straight line, not round a corner. And, surely, that is not difficult with twin rudders.
 
Maybe you should see if the owner will agree to install twin engines to match the twin rudders.
:D
Alternatively can't you have one of the shore crew come out in the RIB to shepherd you in?
 
Ha! Really not a shore crew kind of boat...

As to why I always try to park backwards, there are a few reasons, firstly the ease of unloading kit if you are against the end pontoon, and the fact that with a full crew if you go backwards you don’t have to shout at them to get out of your way so you can see...
But mainly it’s because the last boat had a rather dodgy folding prop for a while, and I simply could not trust it to stop the boat using reverse, so I started parking in reverse in order to use the reliable stopping power in forwards. Even once the prop was fixed I kept the habit up for the reasons above and that frankly I found it easier.
 
flaming said:
Ha! Really not a shore crew kind of boat...

As to why I always try to park backwards, there are a few reasons, firstly the ease of unloading kit if you are against the end pontoon, and the fact that with a full crew if you go backwards you don’t have to shout at them to get out of your way so you can see...
But mainly it’s because the last boat had a rather dodgy folding prop for a while, and I simply could not trust it to stop the boat using reverse, so I started parking in reverse in order to use the reliable stopping power in forwards. Even once the prop was fixed I kept the habit up for the reasons above and that frankly I found it easier.
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I’ve owned a few race boats with twin rudders and folding props. Much of what is needed to have been said has been said re the rudders.. Re the folding prop, if they work in one direction then they work in the other. You can’t just bang it straight into the reciprocal direction though. You need to put the throttle up first, wait a short moment and then give it a go.
 
ninjod said:
I’ve owned a few race boats with twin rudders and folding props. Much of what is needed to have been said has been said re the rudders.. Re the folding prop, if they work in one direction then they work in the other. You can’t just bang it straight into the reciprocal direction though. You need to put the throttle up first, wait a short moment and then give it a go.
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Yes... When they're working properly...

When the gears are a bit worn then sometimes you engage reverse and get a whole load of nothing then a loud clunk and the blades opening about 30s later... Not a whole lot of good in a parking scenario which is why I took to getting into reverse out in open water and using the reliable forward engagement to stop the boat. Prop went back to the makers and was then absolutely fine btw.
 
Speed and more speed. (And fenders on both sides!)

I always start off fast to get plenty of steerage then back off the revs when I have complete control. Get the stern up alongside the pontoon asap, and get the crew with bow line off first, then steer stern away from pontoon until you are straight alongside.

If you have wind blowing you off the berth, make sure the angle you attack from means the momentum of the boat will swing it towards your berth rather than away from it.

If you have tide going with the direction you want to reverse, then more speed is the only answer.

Practice makes perfect, probably took me a season to master the dark art of twin rudders, but now its a doddle and wouldn't go back to single rudder.

Good luck!
 
Perhaps no consolation, but you are not alone.

We watched a twin rudder yacht attempt and fail to do a stern to mooring in quite a modest (15-25 knot) crosswind, with a bit of an audience.
The difference was this was a 60 metre yacht being berthed (or not) by a full professional crew plus 5 harbour staff in RIBs. After FOUR failed attempts they bailed and motored ignominiously back out of the harbour to go and anchor in the bay outside. This on a boat with massive bow and stern thrusters.

To make it worse this was at Porto Cervo, and they had tried to sneak in ahead of the rest of the fleet of Perini Navi superyachts, most of whom had been racing. So the hapless skipper had 14 other superyachts (including sister ships and Maltese Falcon) and their crews and guests held up in a queue outside the harbour, watching and listening to the pantomime. Then they had to pass them all as they snuck back out to anchor. And then ferry their guests ashore in a (posh) RIB for the party.
I bet the skipper got a ribbing at the crew party when they finally snuck back in later that evening when the wind had dropped,

Interestingly they big boats all seemed to rely entirely on thrusters and do a 180 degree turn when stationary, before reversing just two boats lengths to the key. When stationary the boat soon slid sideways and they couldn’t keep the stern to windward, even with thrusters and 5 RIBs pushing.
The ones with trickier berths closer in were forced to turn earlier and motor astern for 5 or so boatlengths and, surprise surprise, did better.
To be fair the boat that failed perhaps got its stern thruster jammed or other gear failure after the second attempt, as clearly in difficulties thereafter. But first couple of attempts looked dooomed from the start by being to hesitating and the stern blowing off (big windsge if deck saloon and fly bridge plus mizzen mast).
 
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Angele said:
I've never understood why anyone reverses a sail boat (without a bow thruster) into a marina berth. It is so much easier to screw up than when going forwards into the gap on a boat with one rudder, let alone with two.
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A F8 into the saloon is no fun.

We park the boat bow first in the winter and stern first in the summer to use the prevailing winds to best effect.
 
Angele said:
I've never understood why anyone reverses a sail boat (without a bow thruster) into a marina berth. It is so much easier to screw up than when going forwards into the gap on a boat with one rudder, let alone with two.
.
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We do it for a few reasons.
1) Boat is designed like most AWBs to walk through the stern to step onto a pontoon rather than climbing up the high sides or even worse over or through the pulpit.
2) Stopping is almost instant
3) Stern fenders on a wide flat stern means you can happily hold the boat against a quay or pontoon and it’s very forgiving when approaching
4) Helm is right by the bit that will make contact first with full visibility and the rest of the boat has no choices but to follow behind
5) If anything does goes wrong ( and a tight reverse turn by the berth in a crosswind is the only downside to reversing) then abandoning the approach is massively safer and quicker changing from astern to ahead
6) More chance of impromptu chat with neighbours

Other than that no reason really
 
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