Para anchors not the whole truth

[bryanglover]

Para anchor, sea anchors do not provide the protection in storms advertised by the manufacturers. Some leading yachting magazines perpetuate the myth, because para anchor manufacturers are prolific advertisers. Both parties show themselves as little better than bilge raised haddock. Here is some examples of what research is concluding about para anchors.

“Even with a large sea anchor the bow of a modern yacht will tend to yaw
away from the wind when the towline goes slack as it will when the boat passes through the trough of the wave. For these reasons the use of a sea anchor deployed from the bow is not recommended”
U.S. Coast Guard Report No CG-D-20-87 sec 6-6
“For fin keel sailing yachts the drogue/sea anchor should be deployed from the stern, not the bow
A series type drogue provides significant advantages over a cone or parachute type drogue/sea anchor”
U.S. Coast Guard Report CG-D-20-87

“ When we were doing our research for Surviving the storm, we did not find a single positive experience in these conditions using para anchors. And the unmistakable conclusion for us from this is that in dangerously breaking seas, tactics other than a parachute anchor have a higher chance of success – for most situations”.the hull and rigging in a breaking wave strike should not be excessive”
U.S. Coast Guard Report CG-D-20-87 sec 6-4

“Para anchor users interviewed all find their parachute anchors extremely difficult to retrieve in other than moderate wind and sea.
A major factor regarding both personal comfort and one’s use of parachute anchors in breaking seas is the boat’s tendency to sail at anchor. As stated earlier, if your boat sails on the hook, the odds are it will sail around even more fiercely while lying to a parachute in the middle of the ocean. This oscillation creates extreme loads, presents the bow at a wide and dangerous angle to the sea, and is extremely uncomfortable.”
Steve Dashew


I have the following questions:-
Do product description codes/laws cover para anchors
Is it legal to advertise para anchors as safe in open ocean storms.
Do yachting magazines do any research when writing articles, or are they spoon fed by interest groups.

Regards Bryan Glover email bryan@seriesdrogue.com


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[BrendanS]

al interesting stuff, but comes across as somewhat biased and more like sales blurb or even spam, given your occupation of selling series drogues

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[Benbow]

You have a commercial interest in a topic that _you_ raise.
You have not declared this interest.

Ergo, you are spamming this group (again).


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[Mirelle]

Ho, hum.

You raise an interesting question, not a propos the yottimags, which do what they can, on tiny budgets, but a propos safety gear and the claims made for it.

The typical modern yacht totes around quite an assortment of "safety" kit, including some or all of:

Lifejackets,
Harnesses,
Flares,
Lifebuoys, with lights and dan buoys
A liferaft
some form (maybe more than one) of MOB recovery system
An EPIRB
A VHF, and perhaps an MF, radio
A radar reflector

To which we are encouraged to add any of:

warps, to be towed astern
a series drogue
or a parachute sea anchor

It seems to me that there is a very general tendency to "buy the kit" without looking carefully at the quality of much of it. Lifebuoys that you cannot get into are but one example.

Yachts, unlike ships, are not required to carry "type approved" safety equipment. Type approval is a mixed blessing; in some cases outdated equipment is perpetuated, but in other cases dangerously inadequate equipment is kept off merchant ships.

It seems to me that the only form of regulation is litigation; if someone dies as a result of relying on defective safety equipment and a surviving dependent brings a sucessful lawsuit then a product may be removed from the market, failing which, it is "caveat emptor".

My own boat, a heavy long keeled gaff cutter, is unsuitable for a sea anchor as she has to much windage forward and sails round her anchor quite a bit; I therefore carry a stern drogue. But other boats may be quite different - I would carry a parachute anchor on a trimaran, for instance.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[bryanglover]

AS SAID ABOVE I HAVE A VESTED INTEREST, BUT I ALSO HAVE AN OPINION, AND THIS FORUM CAN HELP CREATE CHANGE, IF IT IS NEEDED.

Mirelle
I believe para anchors have a place on boats, its capacity to hold a boat at station for what ever reason is impressive, but it seems a competative market with many sellers all out doing each other has led them to make un realistic claims about the product.

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[bedouin]

I'm afraid you've just lowered my opinion of the USCG considerably.

Although the use of parachute type sea anchors is a controversial topic there is no doubt that there is a tremendous amount of evidence that they are effective in many circumstances. There is much less evidence for the effacacy of series drogues.

If the USCG is truely saying that series drogues are always better than parachute sea anchors in all circumstances then that is extremely irresponsible of them.

If on the other hand you have just cherry-picked the evidence to try to make a point for your own benefit then I have to question your honesty.

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[BrendanS]

Read for yourself

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.sailrite.com/drogue_information.htm>CG-D-20-87</A>

It's a report specifically on series drogues, by Donald Jordan who is regarded as the inventor of the series drogue

<hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni

 

[bedouin]

Although it is an interesting article, as a piece of useful research it has a number of flaws.

Firstly it makes no mention at all of the tests it carried out to come to its conclusion about parachute sea anchors - I suspect they didn't do any tests and for a pseudo-scientific paper to make a recommendation based on no tests/evidence at all rather undermines its credibility.

Secondly it is only addressing the issue of capsize protection not the other issues associated with heavy weather survival.

Thirdly it seems entirely theoretical - I see no mention of practical experience of using a series drogue or even evidence that they tried one on a typical sailing boat.

Interesting - yes. Good science - definitely not. Conclusive - not to me

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[ubuysa]

little better than bilge raised haddock

Bit strong don't you think? Larry and Lin Pardy clearly don't agree with you so are they also "bilge raised haddock"? Since they're not trying to sell me a different product as you clearly are (again) I think I'll trust them and not you.

You are the weakest link....goodbye.

Tony C.

<hr width=100% size=1>There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.

 

[BrendanS]

Yes, I had similar thoughts when I read it

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[Mirelle]

a quotation, and a comment

"The series drogue offers the following desirable features:

1. If pre-rigged and coiled down into lazeret, the drogue is simple and safe to deploy under difficult storm conditions. The boat, under bare poles, will be either running off lying ahull. The anchor can be slipped over the stern and the line payed out. The drogue will build up load gradually as it feeds out

2..."

There is really only one way of paying out a drogue line, whatever the type of drogue, and that is by surging it carefully round a substantial post, or a very sizeable and strong cleat. At some point, the load on the line is going to be transferred to the boat, and you certainly cannot hold it in your hands.

It really makes little difference whether the load increases slowly or fast; there is an awful lot of load by the time the line is even halfway out, and letting it go with a bang is not a seamanlike option.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[bryanglover]

"This oscillation creates extreme loads, presents the bow at a wide and dangerous angle to the sea, and is extremely uncomfortable.
There are two ways around this. One is some form of riding sail or backstaysail as we’ve discussed. The other is to bridle the parachute off the bow, as advocated by the Pardeys. The bridle is used with a reefed trysail or deeply reefed main to increase resistance to rolling. A key feature of this approach for the Pardeys is the creation of a slick off their keel, which – theoretically, at least – calms the seas. This is a major safety issue, because without the slick, the boat is now lying at an angle of 50 deg or 60 deg to breaking crests, quite vulnerable to a knockdown or worse. I have no doubt that the Pardey’s Seraffyn did in fact create a slick to windward in its day, but I have never seen this myself, and I have interviewed only one other sailor who claims to have been able to crate this type of beneficial slick and have it work as advertised"
Steve Dashew

Donald Jordan is an Aeronatical engineer, who with the coast guard spent five years delveloping the series drogue. Testing was done on the Columbia river bar which is on the Pacific Ocean, waves are 20 to 30ft for much of the time.
I have not cherry picked from a small amount of information, the internet is full of credible sources, It needs to be put into one spot, perhaps by someone without a vested interest.
Bryan

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[Guest]

Retrieving ....

Any streamed item from a boat is recc'd to be fitted with a trip line to invert the item and then present reduced surface area. OK with log this is not possible, but Sea Anchor of any design is suitable for this. The retrieval by inverting collapses the item - making it more esay to bring in.

Any old hand on this forum and others would know this of course.

Finally - Merchant Ships have carried normal 'funnel' type Sea Anchors for many a year for Lifeboats and rafts ..... they have asved many a seafarer from an untimely death - are they wrong ?? Of course no-one says there isn't a better alternative -but to condemn a proven product ?

Sorry not convinced.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[BrendanS]

Re: Retrieving ....

...but the inventor is on record as stating in his designers notes:

"Adding a light line in parallel with the drogue to permit the drogue to be pulled in backwards is definitely not recommended since it complicates the gear and may lead to fouling under critical conditions.

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[ParaHandy]

were there not several instances of a para anchor rode inexplicably parting in very severe storms? this was thought to be caused by the constant stretching and relaxing of the nylon rode with some chemical reaction as well ...

the same might not apply to a series drogue ....

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[Guest]

Re: Retrieving ....

Re-inforces my stand to not buy one then !!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[beachbum]

\'Scuse my ignorance

... but what is a "series drogue"?

I know what a traditional funnel sea anchor is, and a parachute anchor. I also know, in general terms, what a drogue is. It sounds like this device is used in the same way as the traditional "sea anchor" - which would be better termed a "drogue" anyway - but what is the significance of the term "series"?

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I am nobody.
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[BrendanS]

Re: \'Scuse my ignorance

think of a long rope with lots and lots of little cones attached to it. The idea is that unlike a normal drogue, where you have to position the drogue to be at top of wave (several stands back) at same time boat is at top, or you get surges....difficult to do in rough conditions....the series drogue is always dragging at some point along it's length

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[snowleopard]

Re: Retrieving ....

a trip line will almost certainly wrap itself round the main warp and render itself inoperative. i think motoring up to a pickup buoy is a seamanlike option.

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[beachbum]

Ah Ha!

Yes, I can see how that would smooth out the load a lot.

Thanks...

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I am nobody.
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