Pan pan pan - help needed

[sea]

The great getaway gone wrong! Myself and my partner sold everything and left work after buying a 34 Colvic UFO to make our great escape. Unfortunatly within 5 mins of leaving our home marina we had total engine failure, the engine is a thornycroft 4cl and origional to the boat in 1980. Of course this is an old engine and maybe i was foolish to think that it could take us to the med, but cut a long story short we were recovered by the life boat to a marina that is costing nearly £30 per night and as this is our home (with no engine) we cant move anywhere else. The resident engineer is not sure what the problem is but advises due to the age of the engine - we replace it with a brand new Yanmar 29hp which will cost in total after installation 7k. We dont have those kind of funds to splash out on a brand new engine. If we get him to overhaul the origional then it will cost 2k with no guarentee it will even start let alone be reliable in the future.

If anyone here is familiar with the boat/engine i would like to know if there is an middle ground, i know i can go with BMC and perkins aswell as yanmar but would a reconditioned engine do? Are thornycroft engines good enough to perform at this age?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[saxonpirate]

Well for a start take heart in the fact that you've got a great boat in the UFO 34, I had one a few years back and reckon they're brilliant. As for your Thornycroft, do not take the first bit of advice you are given. You need to give more information as regards your "TOTAL ENGINE FAILURE" that's very vague. In my experience diesel engines very rarely give up the ghost just like that, and don't worry about the engine being 1980...that means nothing. Get back with more information and let us know where you are and most importantly "DO NOT GIVE UP ON YOUR DREAM" anything's possible.

 

[lenseman]

Firstly, I take issue with you regarding using what is technically a distress scenario in your message header, it is not required at all. just "Help Needed" would have done.

Secondly, welcome to the YBW forum.

You don't actually say where you live? You cold have just left your home marina in the south of France or even Adelaide, south Australia so not knowing where you live makes me reluctant to getting involved.

Now marine engines don't suddenly go wrong 'within 5 minutes of leaving a marina'. Either the engine was sick or faulty and in which case should have been known about (marine inspection when you purchased) or conversely, it is not as sick as you have been told and you do not require a re-engine. I would like to think the latter is the case. Hopefully, you didn't put to sea with the cooling sea-cocks closed and the engine overheated badly? You wouldn't have been that silly!

Perhaps you could message me privately or telephone me with further details. I ran a successful garage in the 70's building international rally cars and was also an RAC engineer for a number of years (1977 - 1984).

Fill in a bit of your biography will always help.

 

[Danny]

Is this a Thornycroft T90 (BMC 1.5) engine? If so there are many, many of these of similar vintage still in service. If the engineer cannot pinpoint the problem then I'd get a second opinion. Certainly wouldn't consider a replacement without some strong evidence that the damage is terminal. Please tell us what the symptoms were when it failed.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Firstly, I take issue with you regarding using what is technically a distress scenario in your message header, it is not required at all. just "Help Needed" would have done.

Isn't that what Pan Pan means? From the French "J'ai panne" , I am broken, I believe. Very appropriate. Good luck with the fixing.

 

[gerry99]

Thorneycroft engines were used extensively in Moody yachts. They can be contacted at www.thorneycroftengines.co.uk. As has been said elsewhere marine diesel engines tend not to fail suddenly. Whereabouts are you currently "marooned"? I would be surprised if there was not a local engineer with knowledge of them

 

[Searush]

Some simple tests should help you understand the issues. Does it still turn over (not seized) Is there any compression? (if so valves & rings probably OK) Any fuel at the injectors (if not, bleed them & try again).

What were the symptoms at the time of failure? Over heating, running unevenly, loosing power, smoking, steaming, no water in exhaust? All of these will help people to assist you.

As to high costs, see if there is a mooring available nearby & if someone will help you move to it, or use your dinghy & outboard tied alongside to move her at high water, no wind. If you were somewhere wild & wooly, you would only be anchored, is there somewhere nearby to anchor, possibly with both anchors out as a temporary mooring? That would be free & save you over £200/wk towards your engine repair fund. Could you treat this as an opportunity to learn about your engine & rebuild it yourself? THAT would make you self-reliant.

Seriously, if you are not able to deal with simple emergencies like this, how will you cope when robbed in the Cape Verdes or aground off the coast of Chile? It will get better, but you need to be prepared for much worse.

 

[puddock]

Firstly, I take issue with you regarding using what is technically a distress scenario in your message header, it is not required at all. just "Help Needed" would have done.

Bloomin 'eck, I almost called the coastguard ! How irresponsible of him ...
Posts like these cost lives.

Back to the real world. You have a diesel engine. These are tough as old boots and will put up with a good deal of mistreatment (though not advised). Unless there were "signs" previously that something was amiss, or as has been rightly pointed out, you forgot to open the cooling water seacocks (or they were blocked), it is most probably repairable.
Don't give up just yet !

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

Engines dont just fail without any symptoms or signs. Sounds like you are not familiar with engines; you therefore need to find someone who can give you a diagnosis without any frills. Could be the cylinder head that needs replacement or broken valves. The worse thing would be that the engine needs to come out to replace the bottom end parts. Whichever the case, you can repair yours easily or replace it with another of the same type.

 

[Rowana]

I'm going to be extremely blunt

First of all, unless there was a horrible bang when the engine failed and there are now lumps of odd shaped metal sticking out the side, and you can still turn it over, then I would suggest that it is repairable.

However, and this is where I'm going to be blunt, if you can't diagnose and repair the fault yourself, then you are definately NOT ready to escape.

You were lucky that the problem occurred close to home, and you got towed in by the RNLI for free. Imagine if you were in some far-flung place, where being towed in would cost you, and you didn't speak the language. What would have happened then?

I get the feeling that you have some fairly limited knowledge of sailing, and you and your partner had some stary-eyed idea of the dream.

If you want to go off into the wild blue yonder, I wish you well, BUT FFS STAY TIED UP UNTIL YOU KNOW EACH AND EVERY SYSTEM ON YOUR BOAT INSIDE OUT SUCH THAT YOU CAN FIX IT, OR AT LEAST BODGE IT ENOUGH TO GET YOU TO PORT WITHOUT CALLING THE LIFEBOAT.


Now then, the engine problem. What were the symptoms? was there black/blue/white smoke?
Did it just die suddenly, or did it slow down/cough/splutter/fart etc before stopping?
The more information we have, the more chance you have of someone here being able to help.

Hope i haven't put you off, but I think you need a good dose of reality!

 

[GSL]

Total failure?????

If someone is quoting 2K for a rebuild with "no guarantee that it will even start", bin the guy immediately, his advice is not worth having!!!

GL

 

[Searush]

24 hours later

& no response from original poster. I hope they get a chance to read thro the responses & let us know where they are & what is going on.

 

[peter radclyffe]

ask the lifeboat crew to advise you on a good mechanic, its in their interests, & ours

 

[gregandginas]

if you can't diagnose and repair the fault yourself, then you are definately NOT ready to escape.

If the fault was with the rigging / something to do with sailing then fair enough... but for any competent on a vessel as classy as this, engines are a luxury, not a necessity: until comparatively recently, folk sailed the world without engines!

If you've a drogue and storm sails and such like for extreme conditions and use a bit of common sense when there's a chance of running out of wind.. what's wrong with mounting a small outboard on the stern for manouvering in marinas and just dealing with the inboard at a later date - perhaps elsewhere in the world, where marina charges are lower and labour costs less?

 

[saxonpirate]

Do you know....it never fails to amaze me after reading a few of the comments on this post, at the sheer amount of pomposity and smugness that can be generated in the sailing fraternity. The poster (sea) was being entirely honest and straightforward in their asking for help. They didn't have to admit to being towed in by a lifeboat! Sure there may have been a degree of naivety involved, but did everyone on here start as an expert in all things sailing? Is everyone a qualified diesel engineer? Has nobody ever done something stupid or naive and got away with it by the skin of their teeth, but learned from the experience. I have that's for sure.

I remember something a very good friend of mine told me once about the dreams of blue-water sailing, and he'd circumnavigated twice... It went something along the lines of "Most of the people actually out there doing it had very little experience when they started, but what they did have was the DREAM, and come what may that's why they achieved it" All this couple asked for was some help...think about it.....

 

[lenseman]

. . . . . dealing with the inboard at a later date, perhaps elsewhere in the world, where marina charges are lower and labour costs less?

Brilliant and well thought out, well suggested.

 

[Cliveshep]

Sea, come back and explain more detail please. However, Thorneycroft T90's and T108's (the 1.8 BMC) are pretty bomb-proof. My T108 is the same age and I pulled the head off (unnecessarily as it turned out) to check an overheat prob and the bore wear was in the region of 4-5 thou only! They do not run stressed as they are a slow revving engine and breaking one beyond repair takes a drop hammer, they were made to LAST.

They may look a bit daunting but take heart, they are stone age technology really, just big, oily and heavy but DIY is not out of the question no matter what is wrong. If you've really wrecked it they were fitted into Sherpa vans, only sumps and exhausts and other bits, brackets and bell-housings are different and can be swopped across. If you can get on-line with an e-mail address google for second hand van parts, you'll find several sites offering a parts with guarantee and delivery service, get on one of these with your requirements and pricves will come back from any of the affiliated members with the part you need, usually very cheap! Gaskets and the like come from Thorneycroft who keep a full range of bits, no end of boats are still successfully running these engines including the inland river/broads hire fleets! Your local re-bore place can do anything to these engines a lot cheaper than a complete exchange, don't lose heart!

Even if you have to take it out from the boat it only has four bolts, front mountings and rear ones, plus the usual pipes and wires. Buy some tie on labels if you have to go this route, label and disconnect everything and get the whole lump lifted out onto the quay where you can strip it in comfort.

Stay with it!

 

[Ariadne]

'king hell mate thats not a problem - read my blog! My next boats going to called 'Technical Hitch'.

Don't give up! diesel engines are salvagable from the extremes. If your engineer want £2K with no gaurantee tell him to F Off and souce a local engineer who do the local fishermen use? Start there.

My engine is circa 79-81 and still running ok. New head this month but otherwise all ok. Just keep focusing on where you want to be in the Med'. Oh, and find a cheaper berth you'll get one if you ask around.

Don't listen to the doom mongers - go and live your dream and enjoy it.

 

[Lizzie_B]

'king hell mate thats not a problem - read my blog! My next boats going to called 'Technical Hitch'.

Don't give up! diesel engines are salvagable from the extremes. If your engineer want £2K with no gaurantee tell him to F Off and souce a local engineer who do the local fishermen use? Start there.

My engine is circa 79-81 and still running ok. New head this month but otherwise all ok. Just keep focusing on where you want to be in the Med'. Oh, and find a cheaper berth you'll get one if you ask around.

Don't listen to the doom mongers - go and live your dream and enjoy it.

Well said.. My engine also similar vintage. Runs beautifully. Only problem is access is so poor, there would be next to nothing I could do at sea to fix anything (next year's major project will be to devise some way of improving access).
Last time it 'failed' it was simply a stuck solenoid which we by passed to restart,(marina's 'resident' engineer also told us it wasn't worth trying to fix such an old engine) but to all intents and purposes masqueraded as 'total engine failure' The knack is to learn to sail to a place of safety where problems can be investigated at leisure as not all countries are blessed with the RNLI. So keep focused on your dream but sail, sail, sail... The UFO 34 is a great boat and sails far better than she motors!!!!!
Read Lin and Larry Pardy's website and some of their articles
http://www.landlpardey.com/ColdHardFacts.html ...I'm not advocating that it is necessarily the right approach for you, but might help you put the current hiccup in perspective!!
'happy encouraging smiley thing'

 

[William_H]

Boat proble,ms

Well pompous may be but I can't see our poster enjoying his dream without more knowledge of his boat.
A boat is not a motor car. You can not expect it to be a ?turnkey operation" ie drive it like this if it stops get it fixed by an expert. Boats are too much subject to the harsh environment and you go too far away from help to be able to operate it like a car.

Our poster will need to thoroughly understand his fuel system and his elctrics. Both these systems give a lot of trouble can fail instantly and need to be fixed immediately.

Before any major departure you really need lots of experience with the boat. Boating has a lot of dissap0ointments (and triumphs) so do persevere with the dream. If you read any of the books on great sea voyages you will find they are dogged by technical problems. Chichester for instance spent the first part of his story ranting about the mistakes of the yard on his new boat.

Lastly to replace the engine should be a last resort. If it is not identical to the old one you will end up changing plumbing mounting drive line etc which will push the cost up and produce new problems.
good luck olewill