Pagham - West Sussex.

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tt65

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Has anyone ever been into Pagham? If so, can you give info on access, holding, rules and regs.
 
Seanick is right, it is a nature reserve so landing is prohibited. They do not want you even to go in up the main channel, but it is questionable whether they have right to prevent you accessing below the LW mark. But any attempt at landing inside is out of the question, so theres not much point.
 
There's a quay there so there must have been enough water to get inside at some point.

You could not tie up there today as there are no bollards or rings that I can see.

quay2.jpg
 
The birders would have you believe that Pagham Harbour is out of bounds to boaters, but this is a well perpetuated myth:- have a look at an earlier thread ("militant dredger required") on YBW forum which sets out the background in detail, including a copy of the so-called WSCC permit, which demonstrates it to be a sham
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26961&highlight=pagham

As you enter Pagham Harbour there are navigation marks (south cardinal at 50 degrees 45.47 minutes N 0 degrees 45.10 minutes W etc).

The byelaws for the Nature Reserve are on WSCC website - (the above link to the "militant dredger" thread gives details of where they can be found), however it is not these which restrict navigation, but rather that it is tidebound and only easily accessible for a couple of hours either side of HW.

The photograph of Sidlesham Quay posted by Seven Spades, and lifted from Sidlesham Parish Council website, shows that the channel right up to to the quay is navigable at HW springs and also there are photos on "militant dredger" thread of visiting small boats from Pagham and Bognor which confirm this.

The Pagham Harbour nature reserve may soon be handed over to the RSPB to manage, so no doubt the myth that boaters are prohibited will be further perpetuated!

By the way, did you mean Pagham Harbour Nature Reserve, or did you have the Bay at Pagham in mind - near Pagham Yacht Club and the Mulberry Harbour?
 
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If you compare Pagham and Chichester Harbours, specially at low water, you can see the mess that heavy water-bourne traffic makes of delicate environments like these.

Leave Pagham to the twitchers.
 
Pagham

Thanks everyone. I think that makes it clear. They do not want boats and I see no point in upseting anyone.

I will give Pagham Harbour a miss.

My interest came about as I am trying to find more places to safely anchor overnight while singlehanding in the Solent and south and west coasts generally and I seem to recall that some 25 years (or more!) ago that it was listed as a place to visit by the Arun Yacht Club.

Thanks again.
 
Twister_Ken said:
I was going to refer you to some info on the Pagham Yacht Club website, but it's gone. Big RSPB Brother?
Click to expand...

I found some stuff cached from the PYC Forum, when I did a google search - I think it may be what you were going to refer to. Some of it is copied below.

Ratty might have heard from Mole over who got it removed!

No one wants to destroy the place by tear-arsing around in there, but see no reason not to quietly anchor overnight to enjoy the wildlife from the water. Seems that anchoring is within the law, and indeed I can remember boats being moored in the Harbour some years back. Cant imagine why responsible boatowners would not be welcome.

Pagham Yacht Club has sailed into the Harbour regularly since 1964 to exercise navigation rights, and to encourage local young sailors to take an interest in protecting their local surroundings.

Quoted from PYC Forum:-
Re: Harbour Sailing
by Ratty » Sun May 03, 2009 10:14 pm
Take a look at this from the RYA in Spring S.E news 2008;
"Pagham Harbour
RYA will be submitting formal objections to the draft bylaws
sent by West Sussex CC to the Secretary of State for ratification.
RYA had not been consulted formally, and has unearthed
a number of problems".

During 1965/6 it is documented that when the byelaws were being drawn up the Secretary of State refused to ratify them because of similar problems. Eventually the byelaws were passed but acknowledged the right of navigation.

At reviews of the byelaws since then, there have been other attempts to circumvent the common law right of navigation. This is officially documented too, and that right has been successfully defended by the RYA.

BACKGROUND

"10th Oct 1966 - Pagham Harbour sub committee meeting at County Hall Chichester"
"45. Pagham Yacht Club - Resolved - that the clerk be instructed to inform the Pagham Yacht Club of the function of the Nature Reserve and to ask for their members' co-operation (if they enter the harbour from the open sea) by flying the club burgee (so that they may be recognised by the warden) and to avoiding the islands near the entrance to the harbour."
VERBATIM COPY FROM MINUTES - AVAILABLE AT COUNTY RECORDS OFFICE.

Public rights of navigation and fishing exist over tidal waters. These rights were granted by King John in 1215 within the Magna Carta.

"prima facie all waters which are tidal, and in which navigation are possible, are subject to a public right of navigation"
"which extends to the whole space over which the tide flows and which is not suspended when the tide is too low for the vessel to float".
"It is not a right to property, but a right to pass and repass, and to remain for a reasonable time, and although it is paramount to any right which the Crown , or a subject may have in question, it must be exercised reasonably"
"includes the rights in the ordinary course of navigation, to remain for a convenient time, to load and to unload."
Extract from Halsbury's Laws of England 49 (3)

Should be OK for the Crab and Lobster cruise!
Ratty

Re: Navigation (Pagham Harbour)
by greenlagoon » Thu May 07, 2009 10:06 pm
There is an Environment Agency sign at the entrance to Pagham Harbour, which reads: "No unauthorised boat is permitted to use the harbour".

This sign is therefore misleading in the context of the rights bestowed by the Magna Carta, and Halsbury's Laws, (rights reflected in the current byelaws too), as it implies that authorisation is required to enter Pagham Harbour, when apparently this is not so! (Literally, it is correct, but as authority is inclusive to the rights referred to above, further permission would not be required to navigate into, and out of, the harbour.)

The nature reserve management is missing an opportunity. Surely, it would be a much better to have the Environment Agency replace this sign, with one which politely draws attention to the sensitivity of the harbour. A sign could advise of the need for local knowledge to navigate in the harbour, of areas to avoid for fear of disturbing wildlife, and that it is a nature reserve (and including a contact number for its office.)

That the Environment Agency sign has been there for so long, just illustrates that a circumvention of common law navigation rights has been attempted, over a period of time. It is time for WSCC and the Environment Agency to bring some honesty to managing the tidal area of the harbour, and to enlist the help of local sailors to assist staff to protect the reserve from irresponsible water users.

Re: Navigation (Pagham Harbour)
by Ratty » Sun May 17, 2009 8:29 pm
First of all, you did not really expect integrity from politicians, did you? A large proportion of them are interested only in political expediency, and the outcome of the next election.

In my research of the history of Pagham Harbour interesting old documents keep coming to light:-

"WSCC Nature Conservation Committee - 24th January 1966" held at County Hall, Chichester
Agenda item 4 - Pagham Harbour Boating.
"I have the very learned opinion which can be read in full if any member wishes"
Counsel advises that:-
1) "since Pagham Harbour is foreshore, there is a public right of navigation and fishing over it ............
2) Although such a right includes the right of shelter and anchorage, it is not limited to these but includes all activities which can be regarded incidental to that right of navigation."
------------------------------------------------------------
I fully concur with the remarks above regarding the sign. My opinion (not necessarily learned) is that it is all 'smoke and mirrors', so use your own common sense.
------------------------------
..messing .. about in boats .. or with boats... in or out of 'em, it doesnt matter...

Ratty

Re: Harbour Sailing
by greenlagoon » Fri May 22, 2009 11:20 am
Just a comment on the extract of the minutes which were quoted by Simon - Laura Small is a solicitor at WSCC, so her analysis should presumably carry more weight than the other contributions to the discussion from the Chairman, and members of the Advisory Board, which are less clear, and not necessarily reflecting the legal situation. Laura Small's explanation of the law regarding navigation in Pagham Harbour is at minute 43, shown in Simon's posting. I read from this, that permission is not required for the Crab and Lobster annual sail, (as both navigation into, and out of the harbour, and the ancillary rights "to anchor, to moor and fix temporary moorings, to remain for a convenient time and to load and unload" are described by her).

This will, hopefully, soon be confirmed by DEFRA, which is still deliberating on all the objections to the byelaw proposed changes!

Re: Harbour Sailing
by Ratty » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:02 pm
Hi all you waterfolk,
my friend mole, a resident of Pagham Harbour, came by this interesting piece of paper, the other day.

If this really is the elusive boat permit for Pagham Harbour, and mole assures me that it is, then what are we to make of it?

Look carefully at clause 1: "This permit shall not be deemed to include any permission - ........ to use a boat of any description whatsoever - ...... within the Pagham Nature Reserve."

It does not seem to me to be a permit to do anything, but more of a restriction to some of our rights, but what of it?

I think I will just pack the sandwiches and the coffee in the boat, and go see my friend mole.

(Refer back to Laura Small (council's solicitor) above.)

Ratty

________________________________________
Re: Harbour Sailing
by Simon » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:11 pm
PSSSSST.

I've got the deeds to a piece of real estate on the moon, if anybody is interested.
(These were printed in 1964 as well!)
Simon

Re: Harbour Sailing
by greenlagoon » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:15 am
I am looking for a piece of memorabilia to remind me our times.
Now I have a choice, and need some advice. Would it be best to purchase the Pagham Harbour boat permit for £10, or should I go for the piece of lunar landscape Simon has for sale? By the way Simon, how much do you want for it? And have the deeds been drafted with the same skill as the boat permit?
Or are there any other novel items for sale?
 
tt65 said:
Has anyone ever been into Pagham? If so, can you give info on access, holding, rules and regs.
Click to expand...

In reply to tt65, here is information on access, first to Pagham Yacht Club and then in to Pagham Harbour. Following these instructions I have given the links to an aerial photo showing the entrance and channels, and the Ordnance Survey of the Harbour which is uncharted. Rules and regs other than the normal colregs, do not apply, as it is not a statutory harbour, just the sea.

When visiting Pagham, look very carefully at admiralty charts 2045 and 1652 (amended by survey 2005/6). The area shown is foul ground with a large number of underwater objects, if the tide is ok (HW + or - 2) the area can be crossed.

From the West via Street Bouy and Mixon Pole, Bognor Pier (or block of flats) is at 6 miles 37/40 degrees. Head for yellow unlit sewer bouy 3 and half miles from Mixon. (See instructions below).

From East stay at least 2 miles offshore, after passing south of Littlehampton, to avoid Shelley Rocks and Bognor Rocks. Run parrallel to the shore bearing 240/250 from south of Bognor Pier. (Towards Selsey lifeboat station. ) Turn in to shore after passing sewer bouy. Pagham Yacht Club bears 300 degrees. Look for the blue roof, it is next door (West) of the yacht club. This is a white single storey building with a small bridge on top marked with a red triangle. When heading in look for the red pile (unlit), it marks the wreck of a concrete mulberry section which dries out at half tide. A good place to pick up lobsters or bend your prop.

At night PYC marked with two horizontal fixed red (range 2 -3 miles). These isolated danger marks are arranged as sector lights for the local sea anglers to use (see new chart). If only one is visible when approaching from East or West, do not approach PYC, a small crossing area gives guidemarks 280/300, correct heading 290

Half way between Barn Rocks and the Mulberry, 3/4 mile off the beach is a scour hole (see chart). Local work boats up to 40 feet have anchored here, but it moves so check it out with your sounder. (pot lines 200 yards East near rocks.)

For those wishing to enter Pagham Harbour, good navigation and continuous observation of echo sounder etc are necessary, without local knowledge.

Clear Mulberry Pole port side 50-100 metres (50 45.36 N 0 43.36 W), and aim for no 4 groin marker (the last one), it is the one furthest to the West. It can be difficult to see from this distance. Do not come straight in from the Selsey side as Church Norton Spit extends underwater a long way out. It is possible to walk from Church Norton Spit almost to the Mulberry on a low spring tide

Passing the last groin 20 yards off, run parallel with the beach 50 yards off on your starboard side. Watch your depth and stay mid channel. The channel and the shingle do move around. The navigation marks are not maintained regularly, local sea angling boats, drawing only 2-3 feet can access for about 3 hours either side of high water. The South Cardinal 50 45.47 North 0 45.10 West (see photos on the "Militant Dredger Required" thread) marks a steel wall - part of the old entrance channel, pass South 20 yards off, turn 20 yards West of this into the Harbour. Shingle bank extends from the wall so stay at least 20 yards off and watch your depth. Follow the shingle bank round on your port side to the bottom of Mill Channel. Good luck! The following may help:-

Bing Maps has an excellent aerial view of the harbour photographed at low tide and therefore clearly showing the channels. Go to:- http://www.bing.com/maps/#JndoZXJlMT1wbzIxKzR0YiZiYj01NC4yOTQxNDQ5NjE2ODY1JTdlNi4wNDI0ODA0Njg3NSU3ZTQ4LjU0OTQwNjg4NTgwNDMlN2UtNi4wNDI0ODA0Njg3NQ==
The nearest postcode to the Harbour entrance is PO21 4TB - enter this postcode, adjust scale and change to Aerial photo and drag.

The 1:25000 Ordinance Survey map (Explorer 121 sheet shows the approximate location of the channels). Or go to
http://getamap.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/getamap/frames.htm Enter the above postcode, adjust to scale 1:25000 and re-centre to SZ 877 961.
 
Mooring at Sidlesham Quay

Carribean Blue said:
Follow the shingle bank round on your port side to the bottom of Mill Channel. Good luck! The following may help:-

Bing Maps has an excellent aerial view of the harbour photographed at low tide and therefore clearly showing the channels. Go to:- http://www.bing.com/maps/#JndoZXJlMT1wbzIxKzR0YiZiYj01NC4yOTQxNDQ5NjE2ODY1JTdlNi4wNDI0ODA0Njg3NSU3ZTQ4LjU0OTQwNjg4NTgwNDMlN2UtNi4wNDI0ODA0Njg3NQ==
The nearest postcode to the Harbour entrance is PO21 4TB - enter this postcode, adjust scale and change to Aerial photo and drag.

The 1:25000 Ordinance Survey map (Explorer 121 sheet shows the approximate location of the channels). Or go to
http://getamap.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/getamap/frames.htm Enter the above postcode, adjust to scale 1:25000 and re-centre to SZ 877 961.
Click to expand...

Seven Spades said:
There's a quay there so there must have been enough water to get inside at some point.

You could not tie up there today as there are no bollards or rings that I can see.
Click to expand...

If you are lucky enough to find your way up to Sidlesham Quay (with Caribbean Blue's excellent guidance) then you will find that there a stone bollard which you can tie off to near the lifeline and the old ruined mill foundations.

By the way, a sail around to Sidlesham Quay from Chichester is recommended as a sailing excursion, in a Daily Telegraph holiday article "Britain's best holidays with moorings" 16 May 2008 which describes "a growing number of holiday homes-with-moorings on offer. With a boat at your disposal you can expand your horizons beyond the limits of long walks or car trips. Better still, with a cottage to return to, you will always have a dry and comfortable bed at night".

Pagham Harbour's Quay point then gets a mention:
"Quay points
With 48 miles of shoreline, incorporating sand-dunes, beaches and ancient woodlands, Chichester Harbour, is designated An Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty. It is certainly fun to pootle around in, admiring the sleek yachts and stopping off for picnic lunches or waterside pub suppers. Neighbouring Pagham Harbour Nature Reserve uncovers a fascinating mix of butterflies, oystercatchers, barn owls and kestrels. Chichester itself provides plenty of urban distraction for teens."

Read the whole article here
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/uk/1959781/Britains-best-cottages-with-moorings.html
 
WARNING

Vessels entering the harbour should be aware of the narrow channels, and mud banks. The water is very shallow in many places, only shallow draft vessels or bilge keelers capable of settling on the mud should attempt this.

The local boats that visit this location regularlyare, RIBS, sailing catamarans up to 20 feet, and small sea angling vessels. Occasionally seen in the harbour, are the EA in their larger RIB or even their hovercraft!!

Ratty and Mole have caught up with the times (got fed up with rowing a wooden boat), they now own a small angling boat with an outboard and GPS plotter, echo sounder etc. Great for picnicking in the harbour. Now they can join in with the harbour paddlers in their canoes and dinghy sailors.
 
Well I don't see how any boat could tie up there. It look as though there is only about another 18" to the top of the Quay so it would need some serious dredging before any yacht could get to Sidlesham.

It is a shame, the old adage use it or loose it seems top sum it up. Now it is really lost.
 
Seven Spades said:
Well I don't see how any boat could tie up there. It look as though there is only about another 18" to the top of the Quay so it would need some serious dredging before any yacht could get to Sidlesham.

It is a shame, the old adage use it or loose it seems top sum it up. Now it is really lost.
Click to expand...

Yeah it was literally 4 inches deep at best. The photo makes it way look more 'watery' than it really was. Looked like marsh with a puddle over it to me.

In theory there was about 5m over CD:

http://www.easytide.com/EasyTide/EasyTide/ShowPrediction.aspx?PortID=0072&PredictionLength=7

In practice it would have been a bit higher than expected:

http://www.pol.ac.uk/ntslf/sadata_tgi_ntslf_v2.php?code=Portsmouth&span=1
 
Have a look at the following:- http://www.wetroads.co.uk/thumbnails/sidlesham%20tidal%20road1.jpg
and at the picture posted by Seven Spades earlier in this thread. This is what it looks like HWS +/- I-2 hours, and for a day either side if the barometer is high, but you usually get 2 or 3 days either side. On a low barometer it goes right across the road to the Old Customs House (White Building, extreme left in photo above).

Refer back to my previous posting, regarding draft of vessels etc. The local boats that visit the harbour are small vessels with retractable centre boards or, powered craft such as small angling boats, or RIBS have a draft of about 18 inches and need no more than 3 feet to clear the prop. If your boat cant take the ground, dont go in the harbour, for larger vessels visiting see my entry recently regarding anchoring, and come in with your inflatable, or tender. You have been warned!
 
Carribean Blue said:
Half way between Barn Rocks and the Mulberry, 3/4 mile off the beach is a scour hole (see chart). Local work boats up to 40 feet have anchored here, but it moves so check it out with your sounder. (pot lines 200 yards East near rocks.)
Click to expand...

The Pagham Harbour Local Nature Reserve is now (March 2010) talking about applying to have the area outside the mouth to Pagham Harbour designated a "voluntary" marine nature reserve under the "Marine Bill".

Presumably they mean a marine conservation zone? (The nearby Mixon hole off Selsey is already earmarked as a possible MCZ, by some conservationists, also). If so, how will this affect anchoring at the scour hole between the Barn Rocks and the Mulberry.

Voluntary marine reserves are nothing new, being pre Marine Bill/Act, and are voluntary, so not too much of a worry. This idea was abandoned by the nature reserve previously, being seen as ineffectual as not enforceable.

Is there anyone representing sailors and other water users, who can speak out on our behalf when deciding if they should put a MCZ there? Does it mean that we will we loose this opportunity to anchor, and to explore the area around the Mulberry (also popular with divers I believe).

Who should we lobby?
 
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