Ouzo - drowned despite lifejackets ?

Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

Sailfree

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Would others rate different bigger risks?


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I don't disagree with your list for one minute they are all valid but for me I would add two more (for me)
1. Fire
2. Sloppy watch keeping IE watching where your going and not where you've been.

In 1 above, I sailed with a person that insisted on placing the tea towel over the kettle when he'd made a brew, to "dry it out" - luckily I saw the smoke and was able to dump it over the side before it actually caught fire -he'd forgotten to turn the gas off!!!

In 2 above, I have crossed the Dover Straights more times than I care to admit - with different crews - and some seem transfixed on the shipping ahead and to the side of them- am I stand on or give way etc, but pay no attention to what is coming up astern of them (ferries).

At night a sailing vessel only shows a small "white" from astern and if the sailing vessels crew don't keep a good look-out behind them and couple that with a ferry with - lets say - less than 100% watch, you can have recipes for disaster.

I will wait with abated breath on the outcome of MAIB's investigation into the incident - but I bet you a pound to a penny that it comes down to bad watch keeping on both vessels (my opinion). That opinion (mine) is taken against a serious lack of actual hard facts I.E MAIB will find that in the absence of any further evidence they will conclude that it would have been a lack of watch-keeping that lead to the accident

Peter.
 
Re: You want an honest answer ..........

AJ,

In the Cdn Navy, it's normally ship's team divers who do the rescue swimming. There's also a "rescue swimmer" course for those who don't want to be or can't be full-on divers; I don't know the syllabus, but think it must be about a week of learning to swim with a wetsuit and use the various bits of rescue equipment (horse collar, Billy Pugh net, etc.)
Back in the 70's the University of Victoria teamed up with Mustang to do research on cold water immersion and hypothermia. Pretty miserable way for some students to earn a buck, but it resulted in the development of the HELP (heat escape lessening position) as well as Mustang's survival wear.
http://www.mustangsurvival.com/index.php
My condolences as well to the families.

Kevin
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

I think you missed my point Brendan - it is difficult to see small boat lights regardless of where they are. So what I was saying is that because small vessel's lights are hard to see we use the tricolour SO THAT we can use the spreader lights if concerned about other shipping - it is in our case (because of the brightness of our spreader flood lights) they diminish the visibility of the deck nav lights if we were to use them and that would be illegal (and dangerous).

So, in your claimed very bright night skies (don't forgit I have bin around so to many places with big populations and the bright lights so am not ignorant of the matter) I would have thought what I was saying we do, ie are able to show correct lights as well as floodlight the lower sails and the deck/superstructure, may be of interest to some especially cos of the loom {EDIT for Brendan - a correction, should read cos of bright and stuff /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif} problems you mention.

John
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

who claimed bright nite skies? I just claimed bright! and background, and such forth!
Floodlighting the sails is far too intelligent for you lot
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

Now yer know why the best boats have big tall masts with sails on /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

John
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

I agree. Just taken decision to buy first boat, this sad incident and the debate arising has been material influence on decisions taken to equip the boat. I'm sure the family would want other sailors to debate, contemplate and learn in the hope of avoiding similar situations recurring.
 
Re: You want an honest answer ..........

Brendan

I'm not being clear,

A swimmer of the watch is in addition to the sea boat.

A totally different method, if the sea boat is not available or breaks down, the contingency plan is to use the swimmer from the ships side.

Another method is by using the SAR swimmer from the helo!!!

The swimmer enters the water swims to the casualty turns him around, places the strop over his head pulls the toggle down and signs to the ship to pull the casualty along side.

AJ
 
Fear .... yes I have it in some degree ...

The survival training put the fear of god into me .....

Fell in at Bembridge .... didn't take long - again only minutes that I couldn't lift my legs to try and get back on board ... had to be lifted by two hefty guys back on ... and literally my legs collapsed when they stood me in cockpit ... estimated time in water ... ~10 mins.

What confuses me - is that we can go swimming and I'm sure I've swum for reasonable periods ... but the falling in has some other factor that gets you as well.. ok deeper water is colder of course - but strange ?

I would not count on hours in water .... as some post here .... unless you are lucky that it's in relatively shallow warmish water, second you have some good gear on ... as many are - in the warmer times - clothing is skimped and if you fell in .... ?

One factor that a lot of people are not aware of ......... keeping still in the water - especially if you have baggy clothes on - will slow down the heat loss ... as the water is not changed around your body so much .... The act of swimming can accelerate heat loss not only in exertion which pushes warm blood round faster to heat the muscles / take heat away etc. - but causes the water surounding you to change ....
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

I have a motor boat and I take her out alone. I'm not sure quite why I do it as I am very nervous most of the time, starting the night before. On the other hand I think the high awareness it brings with it is valuable, and if you go ahead all the same you will do so with i's dotted and t's crossed.

I set off up the river the other day in the inflatable, all alone and early, 20 minutes to the jetty. A few years ago I'd have just jumped in and gone, now I go like some explorer, lifejacket on, thigh straps tight, mobile in pocket, hand held in other pocket, spare fuel can and pump, oars in rowlocks, with the tide......
 
Re: Fear .... yes I have it in some degree ...

Did a survival course in Norway once when I was young fit and stupid. We were all kitted up in survival gear, immersion suit, fleece layers, hoods and hats etc, life jackets, spray hoods, the lot, until we looked like Michelin men.

Then we got chucked out of a chopper into the water. Fine to start with but after a while teeth started chattering and within two hours hypothermia was a real danger for all.

After what seemed like eternity, and I've no idea how long that was, a liferaft was dropped in the middle of our ring. More than half of us had serious trouble getting in and wouldn't have made it without help.

Even in the liferaft things weren't any better. Some didn't have the energy to move, some were seasick and none of us would have survived alone.

The exercise lasted about 5 hours.

We were all very fit, mentally prepared fully kitted and knew it was 'just an exercise' and knew we were being monitored but still all suffered from hypothermia, lethergy and utter misery in varying degrees.

I seem to recall that sea temperature was about 4 degrees centigrade. There was little wind and a long swell with few waves.

I would never want to do that again but it does make you think; How would you survive in a channel storm, in the water or a liferaft with your family? Trust me, you won't be wearing the kit we had and you'll all be very frightened.
 
Re: Fear .... yes I have it in some degree ...

I read somewhere that falling OB from a yacht at night even with a lifejacket, in the Channel, the odds of survival are slightly less than those of jumping out of an aircraft without a Parachute.

Dunno how true that is, but it sounds reasonable. I single hand most of the time, and have to accept that if I ever went over, that would be it. Sharpens me up on onboard safety routines no end. Because I swim from the boat from time to time I know too there is no way I could get myself back aboard at 3 - 4 knots in open water fully clothed and with waterlogged oilies.

OTOH the statistical risk of being killed aboard/overboard is a tiny fraction of the risk of a fatal accident in the car while travelling to and from - at least it was when I had to travel 130 miles each way to get to the boat. Even the dinghy is a much less safe place statistically than the yacht itself.

Trouble is whatever the statistics, you are no less dead if events turn against you whether afloat or ashore.

But all life is a risk - stay safe at home in bed and you will likely die of ill health anyway.

But when you hear of it happening like this then ones worst nightmares re-surface, ones heart goes out to the families and friends of the victims, and on board safety routines get a thorough review and overhaul.
 
Re: Fear .... yes I have it in some degree ...

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What confuses me - is that we can go swimming and I'm sure I've swum for reasonable periods ... but the falling in has some other factor that gets you as well.. ok deeper water is colder of course - but strange ?

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Shock perhaps???
 
Re: Fear .... yes I have it in some degree ...

And panic.

One only has to read these forums to see that people go to inordinate lengths for the very remote chance they will end up in the water off even moderate sized keelboats or decked MoBo's. They may end up being the ones most at risk if they do end up in the 'oggin. With some I expect that they would wear lifejackets when they go for a ride in a small ferry seeing as they do on their own boats of maybe similar size and parachutes if in small aircraft (here, more die in small aircraft crashes that drown off keelboats and decked power boats).

When I was around 17 I took a schoolfriend dinghy sailing - he was a very good swimmer and basically pretty solid in mind. We ended up tipped into the sea and this guy just went into a panic - not arms flailing around stuff but just frozen stiff and quivering. I managed to right the boat and get him back into it and to "safety".

Was a very important lesson as to how many may react.

John
 
Re: Fear .... yes I have it in some degree ...

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I seem to recall that sea temperature was about 4 degrees centigrade. There was little wind and a long swell with few waves.

I would never want to do that again but it does make you think; How would you survive in a channel storm, in the water or a liferaft with your family? Trust me, you won't be wearing the kit we had and you'll all be very frightened.

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Luckily the channel never gets as cold as 4C - IIRC it varies between about 10-11 in Mar/Apr to 15-16 in Sep.

At 4C if you go into the water in what we would regard as normal wet-weather gear you will probably be dead of hypothermia within 2 hours - maybe a good deal less.

At 15C most people will last at least 8 hrs and a significant portion can last indefinitely before hypothermia sets in.
 
Re: Fear .... yes I have it in some degree ...

Bedouin,

You figures seem to contrast with what I remember reading in a Coastguard publication. 8 hours might be an expected time of survival if you are wearing an immersion suit with decent insulating layers below, but in standard oilies?

It never ceases to amaze me how many people sail without wearing a lifejacket, how many fewer wear lifejackets in a tender and how many lifejackets are left in damp lockers allowing corrosion to render the inflation mechanism useless.
 
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