Ouzo - drowned despite lifejackets ?

Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

I agree the lights shine off the waves and you get a large area that is easier on their eyes.

However, in rough seas you can not see a thing. Your night vision goes completely if there is any spray. I prefer to see them and then signal with a high power beam light to highlight my position. Quite a few answer with light. Once done I relax. I sometimes swap to deck lights for the next few minutes.

As for this terrible incident. One theory is the convex coast problem. When rounding a coast the ships are never on a collision course as they are still on the last leg before the turn. If you are at a headland and are just going to do a turn the ship behind might look like it is going to miss you. Say 1/2 mile on the outside. Then a few minutes later when you are say 1/2 ahead the ship arrives at the headland.

They then turn on their way point. Until that point you have not got a clue to their destination.

Then with them 3 minutes away they are now dead inline with your position.

What do you do in 3 minutes? Assuming say it would take a minute to rouse the crew and tack the boat.

Which way would you go? Did the autopilot over steer or under steer on the big ship. With the tide running slightly across will it correct its course in the next minute. How far will your boat go in a sea in 2 minutes?

I learnt early on never to assume ships go in straight lines and never to look at MARPA/AIS type predictions. If it is that unobvious with your eyes you need to take action before a situation can develop. Anything from saying hello on the radio, to beam lights, and horns.
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

There are others out there that get scared. My wife used to be scared of the unknown, now she knows so much, she is scared of the known. But the freedom and challenge is so compelling. We hate land and coastlines and are happiest in oceans. As for your dip in the water, the story put chills though us.
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

The point I was trying to make is that hypothermia is going to knock you out sooner or later.

If your life jacket isn't a tight fit with a sprayhood and properly adjusted thigh straps then it's going to be exhausting trying to to stay in your life jacket. All that moving around is going to burn calories and displace any warm (ish) water inside the oilskin. So you loose consciousness and then drown, either by slipping down in your lifejacket or from the spray/waves you can no longer avoid.

At the weekend I was sailing with SWMBO in a nice force 4. I went to reef the main. I haven't got all the reefing gear sorted out yet so I have to use a sail tie to hold the leech reefing eye down onto the boom. It did cross my mind at the time how easy it would be to fall overboard while I stretched out to the boom. I'm a good swimmer, international standard when I was a kid and still pretty fit, but don't fancy my chances much in wellies and foul weather kit while SWMBO does a crash stop or heaves to. (that's if she's forgotten about the life insurance!) /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif At least a harness will tie me on and a lifejacket keep me afloat long enough for SWMBO to come and get me.

I've promised SWMBO that we'll all wear lifejackets with harnesses all of the time on deck now.
 
Re: You want an honest answer ..........

A chilling story... errr... literally!
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

Hi Duncan

I agree with you, Crutch straps are a god send, and they cut the need to fight with your LJ to keep it down.

I teach that it is imperative to turn your back to the spray/waves especially if you haven't got a spray hood. Even cupping your hands over your mouth can help keep water spray getting in.

Drowning can happen even after you have been out of the water, it's called secondary drowning. We all know about it.

Nice to know I'm not the only one with a healthy respect for the sea, and that I'm not the only one who gets concerned about being at sea. Twenty odd years sailing and I'm still out there.

It's great isn't it?

Can't help harping back to those poor beggars though.

AJ
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

You might have read one of my other posts (was about AVS, etc) where I have put across that my confidence is lacking at the minute. I only started sailing 2.5years ago and was very nervous then - 3rd day of sailing and was out in a F7-8 on the bow hoisting the jib and got completely washed from head to toe by a wave from behind I had no idea was coming. Gradually, by sailing each weekend, I built up my confidence, and by the time I went back to do my DS I was confident and would do whatever was asked of me - instructor noticed the difference. Once completed DS I stopped sailing - work commitments meant I was working abroad for a few weeks and lost touch with it all. Looked around to buy my own yacht and bought her last July (Fantasie 19). I decided to sail her home - approx 70-80nm. This was a real eye opener - the first time as actual skipper with no backup and a novice crew. Needless to say, this trip did not go to plan - not directly our fault, but more with the weather and how the yacht could handle it. After spending a lot of time getting her down the coast I was unnerved... and still am to this day. It is not a good thing, but I am now lacking in confidence - I know what the sea can do, and dare I say it, am afraid of the potential consequences... all the time I am thinking what if....?. As a such I have limited my sailing to certain conditions and am trying to once again build my confidence back.

I know exactly how you feel when sailing.
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

I've been sailing since I was a kid, including merchant navy, time as an instructor, deep sea etc and my wife was surprised that I am almost scared of the sea.

It's not fear, it's a healthy respect that keeps us rehearsing drills in our mind for 'what if?'

What if the mast fell down?
What if there was a fire?
What if I hit a container?
What if someone fell overboard?
What if we run aground and the wind shifts?
What if..................?

To be prepared is, I think, half the battle. Except you don't battle the sea 'cos you'll loose. You work with it.

Having said that, those poor chaps may have found that you can't prepare for absolutley everything.

The sea's not cruel, it's impartial and my heart goes out to their families.
 
Re: You want an honest answer ..........

[ QUOTE ]
But when I was in the Navy I fell off the forecastle of a Leander class frigate whilst doing a 'RAS' just south of the Faeroes(sp?)


AJ

[/ QUOTE ]

After 20 years in the Navy and 24 as a professional fisherman, I still ponder on the bravery of Navy and ships divers.
Its good that you survived this ordeal. How often do you think of that hairy arsed swimmer that had to dive in after you? In the RAN the swimmer of the watch was a diver or ships diver. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Re: You want an honest answer ..........

Hi Fishermantwo

Would you believe me if I said the swimmer of the watch was actually a 'Non-com'.

A Non-Combatant, a Ableseaman Writer!!!!! The story went that when I was beside the ship, under the gantry the swimmer entered the water and when the Helo strop was passed down to him, he had to ask how to put it around me!!!!!

Can't hold that agaisnt him, he did jump into a F.F.F.Freezing sea, albeit attatched to a swimmers line.

I remember his name, his face, his eyes like diner plates, he was as scared as I was.

It wasn't a good day out at the races. But I am here to tell the story thanks to that scribes. An hour later, and a change of watch it might have been someone else jumping in, or four hours later it would have been the other watch doing the RAS. Strange how fate bites you in the Butt! If it's your turn, it's your turn, we just try to minimise the oppotunity it gets to have a nibble at you.

Looking back, there were some bloody frightening things that happened whilst serving, but some bloody funny ones too.

Anyway echos of the old saying, 'that's life in a blue suit Jack!' /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

AJ
 
Re: You want an honest answer ..........

A 'swimmer of the watch' is a member of the on watch team, (1st stbd, 2nd stbd,1st port, 2nd port) who is tasked with the job of, for his four hours of being on watch, to dress up in a diving drybag and assist the recovery of a man overboard.

Important member of your watch and station bill.

Hope this help's.

AJ
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

I too am a bit sceptical about the deck level nav lights being more visible when sailing - that from in my experience small boat's nav lights are not that easy to see wherever they are, even in relatively good conditions let alone rough unless quite close.

We always sail with the tricolor and if any ship(s) around of concern to us we turn on the spreader lights which are sealed beam units that light up the whole deck/superstructure and the sails from lower spreaders down. We cannot do that if we use the lower nav lights as the brightness of the spreader lights reduces their visibility, which apart from compromising one it is also illegal.

John
 
Re: You want an honest answer ..........

can you explain in more detail?

Are they permanently in gear, or just when they need to go overboard, and what is their training etc?
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

many on these forums sail in waters where there is a huge amount of light

makes it very difficult to see yacht lights against background. The commercial people who sail same waters say it's easier to see the lights of yachts at deck level than mast head level
 
Re: You want an honest answer ..........

Okie -dokie then,

If your in a normal crusing state, a passage, not under exercise, the ships company is running in a four watch system. These are split up into, 1st of Port, 2nd of Port, 1st of Stbd, 2nd of Stbd. These are your crusing 'watches'. This gives you a minimum of 1/4 of the ships company 'on watch'. The rest of the ships company are, between the hours of 0800 and 1600, going about their normal duties.

The seaman branch are always at their part of ship, doing RN seaman duties which is usually chipping and painting the bloody Barky. Anyway, they make up the boats crew for a man overboard. The side party if a boat comes along side, in fact any seamanship evolution.

Now then, the other seamanship duties during an emergency situation are made up from the other non-seaman branches.

You see,on a rota, the radar plotters are every now and then closed up in the ops room on, well radar duty, the sonar ratings are in the sonar shack, the electronic warefare ratings are closed up doing their thing, so the Gunners are short manned for emergency stations.

An able seaman writer, or stores assistant, or steward, will be tasked as the swimmer of the watch. If the Man overboard alarm is 'piped' he is to hot leg it to the hatch on the 01 deck and get dressed in his 'dry bag'. and with the assistance of one seaman get ready to recover the sod who went for a swim. This is exercised every day at sea, on every RN war ship no matter where in the world.

Now I bet I have made that as clear as mud!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does that help?

AJ
 
Re: You want an honest answer ..........

He isn't a ships diver or anything like that.

To gain his advancement from ordinary seaman to able seaman he must carry out certain evolutions at least three times, get them signed off in his task book, by a Leading hand or Petty Officer.

It can take the bod some time to achieve this if the 1st Lt or the Chief Bosuns Mate, the 'Buffer', likes to send the sea boat away for the man overboards.

No real training, just do it three times.

AJ /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: You want an honest answer ..........

Real question? what do the people who actually go overboard think of this training, and do they trust the person responsible.

From what you say, I'm probably more skilled and trained.
 
Re: You want an honest answer ..........

In the event of a man overboard you will have every matelot not closed up on watch hanging over the side, albeit 30 feet above you on the upperdeck watching and grabbing a hand full of the recovery line ready to pull you aboard.

I was totally out of it when it was me in the ogin, so not trying to sound big and brave, you just hope they are competent at their job.

Your right in saying that you probably have more skills and training than the swimmer.

Constant training does improve the skill these guys have, and they were all guys when I was in. But away from the incident it does play on your mind.

There was a guy who 'fell' over the side in the Gulf in about 1988, he was at sea all night on his own. When he was found to be missing the Nav Officer plotted a sector search and he was found by using the SeaWolf missile system fire control radar picking up on the guys body heat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He was wearing a standard RN issue LJ. He was a lucky steward of the bar!

AJ
 
Re: You want an honest answer ..........

Most rescue boats won't have that type of equipment on board. What does the swimmer actually do? or have I missed the point and the swimmer is the one in the oggin?
 
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