DownWest
Well-known member
Bargin!
Outboard motor, lightest and quietest?
- Thread starter Molteni
- Start date
James_Calvert
Well-known member
A bit far for me in S Devon...
philiphenson
Member
I hate my Suzuki 2.5
It’s a pig to start and always has been.
It’s a pig to start and always has been.
KompetentKrew
Well-known member
Yes, I quite fancy a two-stroke of about this size. Are there any particular models to look out for?
Kelpie
Well-known member
It's all horses for courses.
SWMBO cannot start our 3.5hp 2t. The little trolling motor, on the other hand, is sufficient 90% of the time and whilst a bit slower is still preferable to rowing. Coupled with a 60Ah lithium battery (£280 from Sterling Power) the whole combo is quite good value and useful, IMHO.
Charging isn't an issue really, we have enough solar capacity to spare a few Ah for the dinghy battery.
I recently did a little speed test to compare the two motors. With our 11ft rigid dinghy loaded with two adults, one child, and three bicycles, the trolling motor managed about 3.9kt and the 3.5hp did 5.5kt. The trolling motor is much quieter and it's drowned out by the sound of the water against the hull.
SWMBO cannot start our 3.5hp 2t. The little trolling motor, on the other hand, is sufficient 90% of the time and whilst a bit slower is still preferable to rowing. Coupled with a 60Ah lithium battery (£280 from Sterling Power) the whole combo is quite good value and useful, IMHO.
Charging isn't an issue really, we have enough solar capacity to spare a few Ah for the dinghy battery.
I recently did a little speed test to compare the two motors. With our 11ft rigid dinghy loaded with two adults, one child, and three bicycles, the trolling motor managed about 3.9kt and the 3.5hp did 5.5kt. The trolling motor is much quieter and it's drowned out by the sound of the water against the hull.
riverliver
Member
went to the boat show with this in mind. Nestaway (and the guys next door) had torqueedo and epropulsion on display. My issue is the tender I have is pretty small and even the smaller Torqeedo 603 is a bit bulky for offloading from boat to dinghy even though it does pull apart into leg, tiller and battery. Two other guys at the show really intrigued: just down from Nestaway - thrustme all in one fold up (Kicker) weighs an incredible 4 kg all in. In the ocean village was Temo - 5 kg and looks like a fan on a stick. You install a rowlock on the transom and it is almost like an electric scull. Very tempting but firstly they both seem like start ups - although the websites suggest they are pretty established in Norway and France respectively. Secondly versus the brand leaders above they weren't cheap when you add in carrying bags rowlocks etc etc. Both with add ons would be dearer than a Torqeedo 603 (Nestaway had some good prices at the show I think). For what worth as the end of the season for a fair weather sailor like me is close, I am going to wait until next year to see if these new options catch on
Kelpie
Well-known member
How much power do you think you need? In your position I would be tempted by a trolling motor. You can cut the shaft down, and they are incredibly cheap.
Downsides are: the battery is not integrated, making it a bit more of a faff, best options IMHO are a small lithium "drop in" or an even smaller LiPo pack as used for RC models. Secondly the prop is not really geared for speed, I don't know if it's possible to do anything about that. Thirdly they are not the best quality bits of gear, but with a modicum of care should last a few seasons. And you don't need to cry if you drop it overboard.
Downsides are: the battery is not integrated, making it a bit more of a faff, best options IMHO are a small lithium "drop in" or an even smaller LiPo pack as used for RC models. Secondly the prop is not really geared for speed, I don't know if it's possible to do anything about that. Thirdly they are not the best quality bits of gear, but with a modicum of care should last a few seasons. And you don't need to cry if you drop it overboard.
DownWest
Well-known member
From what I see, the average trolling motor is far from a Torqueedo , and reflected in the price.
For my use, A little petrol unit does the goods.
For my use, A little petrol unit does the goods.
nestawayboats
Active member
OK to be clear at start of post, this is Nestaway Boats and we have sometimes been criticised for posting here... yes we do have a commercial interest in this market. But we also know quite a lot about it which may be of some help to those considering an electric outboard.
So in no particular order, responding to some of the points on this post with some random other points:
- the Temo from France and the ThrustMe (really?!) from Norway are now the new kids on the block. Epropulsion is relatively speaking part of the establishment, with Torqeedo the founder of the integrated lithium battery outboard market. (Somebody else possibly Aquamot from Austria may well claim to have been there first but Torqeedo definitely made it a thing, about 15 years ago.)
- those new kids are lighter and cheaper than Torqeedo and Epropulsion but the price comparison is not really valid if you compare "like for like". The new ones don't have anywhere near as much power, or battery capacity.
- Battery Capacity is only really comparable across different voltages if you know the capacity in Watt hours (Wh). Remember that stuff from your teenage maths class, about lowest common denominators? Well Watt hours is kind of that for battery capacity. Amp hours at 48V are worth 4 times as much in capacity terms as amp hours at 12V. A 25 amp hour 48V battery is the same as a 100 amp hour 12V battery, as a general approximation.
- Then don't forget if it's some sort of lithium battery you can use pretty much 100% whereas if it's some kind of lead battery you should really only routinely use half its capacity (ideally less)
- I haven't tried but potentially quite like the Temo. But repeating the point above, it doesn't have much battery capacity ie range (at useful speed) compared with Torqeedo/Epropulsion and that seems to be what people ask about most often.
- as a bit more speed requires a lot (much more than proportionate) more power, a really easy way to sound like you can go a long way is to quote the range at a low speed. Torqeedo have always done this, Epropulsion seem to be following suit to some extent, and the new kids are doing the same. But if you live somewhere with tides, you really need to be able to go at 4 knots or more. Many if not most here are talking about a 2.5 to 3m flubber, not the most easily-driven thing. The Epropulsion and Torqeedo offering 1000W output are more capable of "beating the tide" than lower output motors, offering 10nm or more range at 4 knots or so (obviously dependent on hull, load, water conditions etc) on that sort of dinghy. And 5 or 6nm at 5 knots. A 250Wh (Watt hour) battery will only go 25% as far as a 1000Wh battery. If you can't find the capacity of the battery mentioned, it's probably small...
- there are definitely advantages to electric outboards other than not carrying petrol on board. Ease of passing up/down; ease of starting for wife, children, grandchildren; quietness; smoothness; ease of storage as nothing leaks out. There are more.
- the typical tender use scenario does not use anywhere near the capacity of (current spec) Torqeedo or Epropulsion batteries on a daily basis, because their battery capacities are now quite high. Most users find (particularly with the Epropulsion, as its 12V charging is twice as quick as the Torqeedo) that only charging the outboard battery when the diesel is running (ie a couple of hours per day running in and out of harbour etc) more or less keeps up with the daily tender usage. If you have more battery capacity you have more flexibility on that, ie more days where you can use a bit more on a daily basis than you put back, between full charge "resets" (on the occasions you have mains power or run the diesel several hours in a flat calm, for example).
- the Epropulsion wins "Best Buy" in the October 2021 edition of Yachting Monthly, which has an 8 page comparison of electric outboards. Might be worth a read, assuming promoting one of the forum host magazines is permitted!
- yes we do in theory sell petrol outboards as well as electric ones but if you want to know how many new petrol outboards below 4hp we've sold in the last two years the answer is zero. And we've sold several hundred electric outboards in that period.
- the market for second hand petrol outboards on ebay etc has indeed been quite strong this year, in part because supply of new ones has been very restricted. But the market for second hand Torqeedos (which have been around for longest) has been even stronger.
- if you are looking at second hand Torqeedos (or Epropulsions) at least find out what battery capacity it had new (as a general rule less, the further you go back in time), and how old it is... by all means buy a 10 year old 320Wh battery but know you're doing so.
That's it for now, by all means fire the questions but (re response times) please bear in mind we are at the Southampton Boat Show at the moment. And if you're considering visiting I genuinely haven't got more than 50m from our stand, but the general feedback from customers is it's quite good apart from the lack of chandleries. We think the chandleries aren't there because one of their mainstays - trying on clothes - is too fraught with Covid regulations. It has been pretty busy so far, we believe visitor numbers surprisingly good.
Ian, Nestaway Boats Ltd
So in no particular order, responding to some of the points on this post with some random other points:
- the Temo from France and the ThrustMe (really?!) from Norway are now the new kids on the block. Epropulsion is relatively speaking part of the establishment, with Torqeedo the founder of the integrated lithium battery outboard market. (Somebody else possibly Aquamot from Austria may well claim to have been there first but Torqeedo definitely made it a thing, about 15 years ago.)
- those new kids are lighter and cheaper than Torqeedo and Epropulsion but the price comparison is not really valid if you compare "like for like". The new ones don't have anywhere near as much power, or battery capacity.
- Battery Capacity is only really comparable across different voltages if you know the capacity in Watt hours (Wh). Remember that stuff from your teenage maths class, about lowest common denominators? Well Watt hours is kind of that for battery capacity. Amp hours at 48V are worth 4 times as much in capacity terms as amp hours at 12V. A 25 amp hour 48V battery is the same as a 100 amp hour 12V battery, as a general approximation.
- Then don't forget if it's some sort of lithium battery you can use pretty much 100% whereas if it's some kind of lead battery you should really only routinely use half its capacity (ideally less)
- I haven't tried but potentially quite like the Temo. But repeating the point above, it doesn't have much battery capacity ie range (at useful speed) compared with Torqeedo/Epropulsion and that seems to be what people ask about most often.
- as a bit more speed requires a lot (much more than proportionate) more power, a really easy way to sound like you can go a long way is to quote the range at a low speed. Torqeedo have always done this, Epropulsion seem to be following suit to some extent, and the new kids are doing the same. But if you live somewhere with tides, you really need to be able to go at 4 knots or more. Many if not most here are talking about a 2.5 to 3m flubber, not the most easily-driven thing. The Epropulsion and Torqeedo offering 1000W output are more capable of "beating the tide" than lower output motors, offering 10nm or more range at 4 knots or so (obviously dependent on hull, load, water conditions etc) on that sort of dinghy. And 5 or 6nm at 5 knots. A 250Wh (Watt hour) battery will only go 25% as far as a 1000Wh battery. If you can't find the capacity of the battery mentioned, it's probably small...
- there are definitely advantages to electric outboards other than not carrying petrol on board. Ease of passing up/down; ease of starting for wife, children, grandchildren; quietness; smoothness; ease of storage as nothing leaks out. There are more.
- the typical tender use scenario does not use anywhere near the capacity of (current spec) Torqeedo or Epropulsion batteries on a daily basis, because their battery capacities are now quite high. Most users find (particularly with the Epropulsion, as its 12V charging is twice as quick as the Torqeedo) that only charging the outboard battery when the diesel is running (ie a couple of hours per day running in and out of harbour etc) more or less keeps up with the daily tender usage. If you have more battery capacity you have more flexibility on that, ie more days where you can use a bit more on a daily basis than you put back, between full charge "resets" (on the occasions you have mains power or run the diesel several hours in a flat calm, for example).
- the Epropulsion wins "Best Buy" in the October 2021 edition of Yachting Monthly, which has an 8 page comparison of electric outboards. Might be worth a read, assuming promoting one of the forum host magazines is permitted!
- yes we do in theory sell petrol outboards as well as electric ones but if you want to know how many new petrol outboards below 4hp we've sold in the last two years the answer is zero. And we've sold several hundred electric outboards in that period.
- the market for second hand petrol outboards on ebay etc has indeed been quite strong this year, in part because supply of new ones has been very restricted. But the market for second hand Torqeedos (which have been around for longest) has been even stronger.
- if you are looking at second hand Torqeedos (or Epropulsions) at least find out what battery capacity it had new (as a general rule less, the further you go back in time), and how old it is... by all means buy a 10 year old 320Wh battery but know you're doing so.
That's it for now, by all means fire the questions but (re response times) please bear in mind we are at the Southampton Boat Show at the moment. And if you're considering visiting I genuinely haven't got more than 50m from our stand, but the general feedback from customers is it's quite good apart from the lack of chandleries. We think the chandleries aren't there because one of their mainstays - trying on clothes - is too fraught with Covid regulations. It has been pretty busy so far, we believe visitor numbers surprisingly good.
Ian, Nestaway Boats Ltd
Hambleite
Member
KompetantKrew - The 2.2-3.5hp Mercury/Mariner/Tohatsu are all basically the same engine, just a different tune. You can convert the 2.2 to 3.3/3.5, just Google it.
With regards to values, the market for 2 strokes that were of a good design originally and are in working order is strong. Good 2 strokes sell very quickly on the various second hand sites, sometimes within a few hours - before the casual passer buy would even know....
For example - I've been in the market for a 2 stroke Mercury / Mariner 8hp and 15hp over the past 2 years, as have a good friend of mine. When a decent one comes up, they've been snapped up within hours. However, the engines that could be described at 'tatty / unloved / no provenance' tend to hang around.
I've also been looking at 2.2-3.5hp market as a starter for my 2 young children and the market is also strong.
With regards to values, the market for 2 strokes that were of a good design originally and are in working order is strong. Good 2 strokes sell very quickly on the various second hand sites, sometimes within a few hours - before the casual passer buy would even know....
For example - I've been in the market for a 2 stroke Mercury / Mariner 8hp and 15hp over the past 2 years, as have a good friend of mine. When a decent one comes up, they've been snapped up within hours. However, the engines that could be described at 'tatty / unloved / no provenance' tend to hang around.
I've also been looking at 2.2-3.5hp market as a starter for my 2 young children and the market is also strong.
riverliver
Member
Not a lot - river user so backwater exploration etc. Looked at a trolling motor but was put off by the need for a separate - relatively v.heavy - battery which doesn't work for us