Our new charter business website.

[Deleted User YDKXO]

For example, if you assume £1900/day charter fee, the margins left to the operator after allowance for VAT leakage and variable costs (incl allowance for labour even if Henry drives) are perhaps £1050/day and measuring that against a £800k asset whose usefulness is maybe 100 days/year tells you that Henry is not overcharging. Lots of boats charter well at similarish prices. And lots of people think nothing of a £12k cheque as one element of a holiday's cost. Try to get any change from €3k a night for a 5 star hotel on the slopes in Courchevel1850 in season, just to make a random example

Not sure the hotel in 1850 is a good analogy but £1900/day is certainly fair by Med standards. My old Ferretti 46 in Palma chartered for €2500/day 5 years ago. I always look at UK charter rates from a company point of view.I don't know what the split is between private and corporate charter is in the UK but my bet is that corporate charter is bigger. A typical corporate hospitality day costs a company say £500 per client (eg rugby, festival of speed etc). Given that you could easily get 10 people on henryf's boat, £190 per person is dead cheap in hospitality terms and thats the right way to look at it IMHO

 

[nickd]

Yuo can alsways look at an absolute number like £12k/week and think "Cor blimey that's a lot" but so is the new price of a 2012 50er mobo. I think that being fair to Henry it is actually offering very good value. Either on absolute economics or in comparison with other things.

For example, if you assume £1900/day charter fee, the margins left to the operator after allowance for VAT leakage and variable costs (incl allowance for labour even if Henry drives) are perhaps £1050/day and measuring that against a £800k asset whose usefulness is maybe 100 days/year tells you that Henry is not overcharging. Lots of boats charter well at similarish prices. And lots of people think nothing of a £12k cheque as one element of a holiday's cost. Try to get any change from €3k a night for a 5 star hotel on the slopes in Courchevel1850 in season, just to make a random example

I was not complaining about the price per se, just stating that at that price one has certain expectations - as the paying guest I do not care what the running costs/margins are merely that I percieve that I am getting value for money. To use your analogy I can get a suite in Courcheval 1850 in high season for 1450 euros (Le Lana) and that is half board and I'm damn sure that is not pie and mash.

Henry asked for an opinion and I have given one, from the standpoint that I do not own a motor boat, and probably fit his customer profile quite well as far as income etc goes.

 

[nickd]

Not sure the hotel in 1850 is a good analogy but £1900/day is certainly fair by Med standards. My old Ferretti 46 in Palma chartered for €2500/day 5 years ago. I always look at UK charter rates from a company point of view.I don't know what the split is between private and corporate charter is in the UK but my bet is that corporate charter is bigger. A typical corporate hospitality day costs a company say £500 per client (eg rugby, festival of speed etc). Given that you could easily get 10 people on henryf's boat, £190 per person is dead cheap in hospitality terms and thats the right way to look at it IMHO

Very good point and well made.
But the web site does not seem to push the concept of a corporate day jolly at all, or may be I just lost that bit .

 

[jfm]

Given that you could easily get 10 people on henryf's boat, £190 per person is dead cheap in hospitality terms and thats the right way to look at it IMHO

Yup a swanky posh ski hotel was just a random comparison to show what the market segment will pay rather than a perfect comparable

Henry's boat is coded for 6 pax but even then the maths still works out well and under £500/head. I don't criticise Henry one bit on the vfm he is offering - I reckon it is very fairly priced esp for a brand new boat.

 

[jfm]

To use your analogy I can get a suite in Courcheval 1850 in high season for 1450 euros (Le Lana) and that is half board and I'm damn sure that is not pie and mash.

You absolutely can't. Le Lana is my specialist subject , based on much nice experience there. The base price is indeed €1450 for their so called superior suite (and higher for their really nice suites) but you have to add 250/night per child and you will not have nice dinner for <€200 and then there is a stack of extras, and finally VAT! And that's if you can get a suite.

It's prob not worth doing the comparison to death becuase it is a bit random anyway and I was merely trying to show that there is much demand in the £2000/night sector. If when paying and playing in that sector you stomp about saying "Well for that price I expect this and I expect that" you'll get rebuffed.

I found this loads on the charter requests I got last year for Match, many unsolicited. You'd tell people the price and some of them would run the argument "Well I'll pay, but it's loads so can i have this and that thrown in?" or "Can I have 10% off" and the answer was always "No, the price is right, even if it feels a bit toppy to you sir. Now do you want it or not?" Once you have your pricing right, never budge (imho!)

The other thing is you get punters saying "Well so and so will do the same for 20% less" to which the answer is usually "Yeah well so and so's boat is 10 yo and worth half so his price should be loads less". Henry is offering a brand new boat here and that is worth a premium

 

[henryf]

Hi there Nick

The content for the site has been written over a period of time and sometimes you are in a better frame of mind than other times. Sometimes you are more sober than other times

I knew it was going to be a rude awakening when I put the embryonic site up for perusal but I genuinely have found it, and am still finding it really helpful so thank you. I am fully aware that many of the posts come across as harsh when they might not mean to be but that's the nature of a critique. I'm big and ugly enough not to get upset.

There are some things that have been said which I think are wrong and that's why I do what I do. I could be mistaken - though I doubt it and those elements will remain but largely I agree with much that has been said and have / am in the process of changing it.

Champagne. I'm not that fussed about the stuff personally but I do know good from bad. It would be easy to throw in twenty quid's worth on arrival but the problem is I know people who don't drink anything less than fifty or a hundred pounds a bottle champers. They will also do more than a bottle at a time. To be fair they are not mean people and so what we have done is said this is the base price for a decent experience. If you think you need a case of champagne then bring it along and we will gladly keep it chilled for you. We don't even insist on supplying or any form of corkage. We aren't angling at selling an upgrade package for drinks, there will be a reasonable selection of what you would expect but given the individual nature of each booking we can adjust to taste within reason. Ultimately as John has said we aren't actually that expensive. I should imagine some of his provisioning bills have come to our daily charter rates.

The nature of our cruising ground (short distances and cheap moorings compared to the SOF) means it can work because it is a different product to Med charters. I think it is also a different product to most of the current UK charters. I find just going along a bit boring after a while. I want to arrive somewhere and start enjoying myself. I'm hoping others feel the same and we sell a few weeks.

Henry

 

[henryf]

Just to add on the pie and mash front they are really nice pies

I am not looking to emulate a Michelin star restaurant in Newtown Creek. If you want Michelin star quality food but without the price tag (with the service though) then I can provide it. There are a couple of places we visit that have really great dining. But Newtown isn't about pretentious food.

It's about spending an hour with your missus pottering around in the dinghy, exploring the creek, taking a few photos, sitting there with the engine off listening to the birds chattering away and then when you come back to the boat there's hot food waiting for you to tuck into. Maybe an alfresco BBQ with a bit of fish or some specialist sausages or burgers. A lovely pudding that you shouldn't really but sod it you're on holiday and a bit of Ben & Jerry's ice cream. Maybe a bit of cheese a couple of bottles of wine and you end up crashing totally exhausted.

Then when you wake up the most magical hour in the dinghy at tick over trying not to upset the glass finish to the water. A little mist rising off the water, a seal laying on the bank side, birds everywhere you look and not a care in the world. No car horns, no stereos, no screaming voices. Just you, your thoughts and a chance to take stock.

If you didn't want to dine on the boat the night before then take the dinghy up to Shalfleet boatyard and walk up to the New Inn. The torchlight walk back down the track to the dinghy, the moonlit trip back to the boat and then a lovely coffee or hot chocolate together with a nightcap.

That's what we are all about. It may not be for everyone but that's cool. We only have the one boat and there are only so many days in the year. It isn't going to be 28 degrees in blinding sunshine, in fact my favourite time is the winter where a cosy boat sitting on it's own with not a neighbour in site is pure heaven. The silence is deafening and you are tucked up like toast with loved ones or friends. Every single restaurant has a table and you get the best service ever

Henry

 

[nickd]

Hi Henry
I am glad no offence taken, it was not intended
Good luck with it

 

[U4]

Good luck with the venture Henry, I wish you all the best with it...

 

[mjf]

I think the biz plan is good as it encourages multi day use and many others offer the day trip sort of charter. My read is Henry is aiming at a couple of couples or family that is rid of the ownership hassle.

I always remember at a boat show when looking on Sunseeker the bloke next to me asked the charter price and was shocked how low the quote was. I thought is was toppy but the bloke said - 'N cos when you divide it by six of us its bloody cheap for a holiday....

 

[henryf]

I think the biz plan is good as it encourages multi day use and many others offer the day trip sort of charter. My read is Henry is aiming at a couple of couples or family that is rid of the ownership hassle.

I always remember at a boat show when looking on Sunseeker the bloke next to me asked the charter price and was shocked how low the quote was. I thought is was toppy but the bloke said - 'N cos when you divide it by six of us its bloody cheap for a holiday....

I thought long and hard about the numbers before embarking on this project. My issue was would people spend what I was going to charge? Because we do overnight charters it's more like having a private boat. I appreciate it's never going to be exactly like having your own boat not least of which because you get little old me tagging along everywhere.

But when you do the numbers and see how many boats never move it does make sense. Some of the poor copy on the site was because I was paranoid that people would see it as too expensive and I wanted to try and justify things.

My maths went something along these lines:

Mooring, service & maintenance, insurance. £10-15k
Finance assuming you borrow around £300k £20k ish
Depreciation - how long is a piece of string but £20-50k per year isn't unrealistic.

So you are potentially talking £50k plus. Even if you don't need to borrow the money it could be earning you something put into a property or other investment.

Again, I know there are other options, buying an older boat saves some of above. So if you could live with limitations of charter then then numbers allow for quite a few days usage. Possibly more days than some would spend on their own boat. And of course when you're not using you're not paying. There is no ownership syndicate or annual membership fee.

Ultimately time will tell. I am totally realistic and know it will take quite some time to get established but we are here for the long term. There are no underlying financial pressures threatening to scupper the project.

The one thing about all the feedback which has pleased me is any comment on pricing has generally been positive.

The other interesting thing is that if one partner enjoyed boating but the other didn't then there is no need for them to get dragged along as unwilling crew. You already have a skipper, if you are already a competent boater you can crew yourself or else we provide both persons necessary to make the boat work.

Henry

 

[Alan_C]

Once you have your pricing right, never budge (imho!)

JFM, you are right - wrong pricing, misunderstanding costs and giving discounts killed so many British businesses in the 70s & 80's. Look at the Mini - BL should have charged a premium for it, yet sold it too cheaply, killing cashflow.

Sorry if this is thread drift

 

[Alan_C]

The one thing about all the feedback which has pleased me is any comment on pricing has generally been positive.

The other interesting thing is that if one partner enjoyed boating but the other didn't then there is no need for them to get dragged along as unwilling crew. You already have a skipper, if you are already a competent boater you can crew yourself or else we provide both persons necessary to make the boat work.

Henry

Hi Henry

You hit the nail on the head there and potentially another target market is those such as myself...

Some family boating experience when younger, now just getting into boating for real, so will be training and learning all I can, hopefully following a path such as BartW, with a smaller boat, trading up over time.

If at some stage I was looking into 50+ boats, I would happily charter for a day or two just to see if I was not taking on something beyond my level.

While doing this, my OH who isn't into boating would be shopping somewhere, and I'm sure the cost of charter would compare very favourably her shopping

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

JFM, you are right - wrong pricing, misunderstanding costs and giving discounts killed so many British businesses in the 70s & 80's. Look at the Mini - BL should have charged a premium for it, yet sold it too cheaply, killing cashflow.

At the end of the day, you can do all the pricing calculations you like but the only factor which determines the right price is what the market is willing to pay. The fact is that BL charged what they could for the Mini but the market was not willing to pay more because the brand was tainted by poor quality, poor reliability and lousy dealers. As it happens I think henryf's pricing sounds about right but nobody can tell for sure until the orders start coming in or not, as the case may be

 

[Mike k]

Great site Henry- just a thought, I know its personal preference but I reckon the cover shot should be the boat anchored in a moody setting giving the sense of great weather, freedom and idealism. The one JFM uses in his avatar ( though I think he just changed it but its still there on his profile) provides those senses for me.

thats my pennies worth!!

Cheers

Mike

 

[volvopaul]

Henry, I spied your new toy today , with men at work on her.

All looks good, but not sure that 4 stroke outboard will get your juices flowing.

How about an extra to the charter, cash extra of course..... Jet ski hire!

 

[jfm]

Great site Henry- just a thought, I know its personal preference but I reckon the cover shot should be the boat anchored in a moody setting giving the sense of great weather, freedom and idealism. The one JFM uses in his avatar ( though I think he just changed it but its still there on his profile) provides those senses for me.

Mike i haven't change my Av pic in a while. Here it is in its full uncropped glory, plus another from ther same session. Both shots belong to and were taken (on location in Lavezzi) by the delightful Viewfinder, who sometimes posts on here and is Jimmy Le Builder's girlfriend.

 

[z1ppy]

cracking picture that!!!

 

[David of Essex]

All the very best with this project Henry; it is new territory from your normal sales expertise. Understanding what would make a person hire is the key to your success, as most boat owners would look at boating from a completely different prospective than non boaters. Some one with professional sales and marketing in boat charter would be a good starting place as well as all the input from the experienced members on this board. Somewhere in all this info is the key, its which parts you decide to take on board.
David

 

[henryf]

Those photos look like they were taken on the moon John. What you want is some nice pictures with a few clouds and people in raincoats. Go on admit it, you miss the rain sometimes

Glad they were working away. Loads of little bits to sort out which all amount to a chunk of work. The coding boys have been busy without actually changing that much. There were a few toys lying around when I was down last weekend and half a dozen torches with morse code strapped to them. I can see they will come in handy.....

Are you taking the p1ss out of my lovely new Yamaha engine? I will have you know that compared to using the oars 8hp is the business. We don't use the tender for anything other than tendering ashore and going up to the pub. Having a fully formed aluminium V hull makes extremely good use of those horses as well.

I do actually have a rather funky Jet ski which will fit on the back now we have a passerelle again. Might bring it down to Haslar and invent some mooring space for it. The new berth has a bit of spare space. That way I could choose the rib or the ski on the back depending on mood or destination. The rib has been much more useful.

Henry