One day insurance transfer for trial sail

Tempus said:
...To return to the thread. We sold our Hallberg Rassy in April, she was with a well known broker, on hard standing at a major marina, deep cleaned, re-varnished where needed, anti-fouled and ready to go. Under no circumstances would I have craned her in and given a possible purchaser a test sail. However when she sold (within 2 weeks) the buyer asked for the sale to be conditional on an engine trial. We'd signed the contract and accepted a deposit subject to this. Such a request was very easy to accommodate, and the test went ahead, followed 2 days afterwards by the transfer of funds. I accept that HR's are easier to sell than many, but it seems that many of the posts here are not considering the real-life practicalities of what's being asked.
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I bought my boat through a broker last year using a very similar process. I put down a deposit and had a contractual agreement from the vendor for them to take their boat off the market and sell it to me (subject to usual conditions) before I commissioned the survey.

Following the survey the final part of the process was a sea trial which, even though we got the sails up just to have a look at them and the rigging under sail, was primarily to test the engine and run it up to working temperature. Funds were transferred and the sale completed the same day.

In my experience the broker process works very well and I would choose it over a private sale for anything other than a low value boat.
 
JumbleDuck said:
As a matter of interest, what professional qualifications are required to be a yacht broker?
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For ABYA members the process begins with the two day introductory course and then a probationary period (usually one year) working in a brokerage office.
The speakers on the introductory course are marine industry professionals in their specialist fields and provide topical and instructive lectures relating to Marine Law, VAT, Insurance, Marine Finance, Registration, the Internet, Selling Skills, Surveying & the RCD, plus an insight into new boat sales.

After the probationary period members can apply for the basic accreditation level of membership.

Members have access to the secretariat of ABYA and links with marine lawyers and HMRC contacts. At all times members must maintain Professional Indemnity insurance to a suitable level and will be required to maintain their legal and technical knowledge and skills through a process of Continuous Professional Development.

ABYA has a scheme of Continuous Professional Development (CPD) whereby members have to collect a certain number of points every three years. Points can be earned from attending training and development activities organised by ABYA or other bodies, as long as they are relevant to the development of the broker or dealer in his professional life.

CPD helps members keep up to date with both legal and technical aspects of boat sales, ensuring their credibility both to the client and within the legal system.

There is also an annual senior brokers course to be attended which will carry any relevant changes to related legislation.

The next stage is an application for Full Membership. This is usually after three years.

All membership applications are scrutinised by a sitting committee of 12-13 members and membership applications are only passed if the committee feels the applicant has reached the required standard.

All members must work to the ABYA code of practice http://www.abya.co.uk/information/code-of-practice.aspx

The final stage is where members' services to the Association can be recognised with the award of Fellow or Honorary Membership but this is usually after a very significant period of time as a senior/principle broker.

I began in brokerage in 2004 and am currently a full member and newly elected committee member.

My practical sailing experience is some 20,000 miles of long distance cruising and I have RYA Dayskipper Practical and Yachtmaster Theory.
 
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An update on how things turned out when we sent to see the boat, which btw was in the water rather than on the hard.
It proved to be a wasted journey – a boat that had been represented as in very good condition was anything but.
The broker was being very optimistic when he described the boat as “very well kept”…“in good condition”…..“ready to sail away except for an engine service”
Suffice to say that the birds nest in the cockpit gas locker set the tone for a boat which has been utterly neglected.
While I knew I would be seeing a 28 year old boat which would require rigging renewal etc I had not anticipated she would be so uncared for.
I know that many sailors would not be put off by boats that need a lot of work done, but I am, having neither the time nor the skills to be doing multiple jobs.

In any event I would rather pay more for a boat in good condition and spend my time sailing instead.
I guess what I have learned from this is to quiz the broker pretty hard on the condition of the boat before I go out of my way to see it, and hope he’ll be honest in his answers.

On the whole issue of the test sail, there have been a lot of good points made by both sides here, and I now have a better appreciation of why owners & brokers would not want to waste their time on tyre kickers.
However in my case I would still want to go for a test sail in a boat I would hope to buy.

For example – another boat I am interested in is a Westerly closer to home.
My only experience with Westerlys is some club racing on a GK 24 which I know is very different to most Westerlys. I have read up a lot on Westerlys and appreciate their stronger points, and would be confident I would be getting a strong, safe family cruiser rather than something nippy like a GK 24 or 29 etc. I understand this and am happy with the trade-off in principle, however I do want to know how this Westerly will sail before I buy here – rather than saying to myself for the next ten years “ well I kinow she would be a little on the slow side, I just didn’t realise she would be this slow”.

Reviews are helpful to give you an overall impression of a boat, but we are all biased, whether we realise it or not.
What is steady progress to one man is merely plodding along to another.
And no, I don’t know anybody else with the same boat that I could ask to take me out.

So to progress with this Westerly I would initially like to have a brief look at it with my wife, to see that it is in fact as advertised and would, as we suspect, meet our requirements.
Next I would bring someone with me for a decent look through the boats systems and hopefully go for a sail on the same day. From there we are at offer / survey stage – all going well.
 
RO'D said:
It proved to be a wasted journey – a boat that had been represented as in very good condition was anything but.
The broker was being very optimistic when he described the boat as “very well kept”…“in good condition”…..“ready to sail away except for an engine service”
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When I was looking for my current boat I went to see one in Scotland which was described by the broker as "undergoing constant maintenance". Which turned out to mean, "covered with green mould, one galley locker full of water coming through the teak deck and with a rough 6" square of ply screwed on top of a hole in the cabin sole."

The next one I investigated, and which I bought, was through Boatshed, and the 60+ pictures on their website gave a very straightforward view of how the boat was.
 
l'escargot said:
I would be surprised if any broker, or indeed a private seller, would agree to a test sail before an offer has been made.
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Two weeks ago I went for a trial sail on a boat, it was the first time I had seen her and there was no mention of an offer.
All parties were very satisfied with this arrangement, indeed the owner had already taken one other out for a trial sail and said he had two more parties coming over the weekend
With the new boat I am interested in I would be surprised if I was refused a trial sail before an offer made.
You'ld be amazed what people will do in an effort to facilitate a sale
 
RO'D said:
Two weeks ago I went for a trial sail on a boat, it was the first time I had seen her and there was no mention of an offer.
All parties were very satisfied with this arrangement, indeed the owner had already taken one other out for a trial sail and said he had two more parties coming over the weekend
With the new boat I am interested in I would be surprised if I was refused a trial sail before an offer made.
You'ld be amazed what people will do in an effort to facilitate a sale
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I'm surprised. I bet he soon gets fed up with giving 4 jollies round the bay every weekend though..
 
RO'D said:
Two weeks ago I went for a trial sail on a boat, it was the first time I had seen her and there was no mention of an offer.
All parties were very satisfied with this arrangement, indeed the owner had already taken one other out for a trial sail and said he had two more parties coming over the weekend
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Sounds brilliant is he pleased you bought her?
 
R'od

If you really want a trial sail, (whatever that proves) then there are decent ways to do this.

You could contact the owners association and see if any members would be happy to take you out for a blast. Westerly Owners for example will put you in touch with (non vendor) owners, who'll give you the warts and all view of the boat they own. I would be happy to do this for an interested party is my westerly was the type sought - and I am not thinking of selling.

You could sign up for a weeks tuition with a sailing school who have the type of boat you want. You'll be instructed in how to get the best out of that particular boat in the conditions that present themselves.

If available, you could charter a boat for a period of time which suits your needs and draw your own conclusions.

A half day around they bay with someone who wants to sell..what does that prove?

Out of interest, what did you learn from your 'trial sail' and why didn't you make an offer?
 
JumbleDuck said:
I took the chap who bought my last boat out for a sail before he made an offer. What the heck. I like sailing.
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Agreed - I mentioned in another thread that I'd do this myself. What does it prove to the purchaser though? Unless the 'buyer' is very experienced it'll just be a jolly.
 
JumbleDuck said:
Thank you. So there is no formal qualification, no examination and only two days of formal instruction? That doesn't seem like much, but I presume the professional indemnity insurers are happy with it.
Click to expand...


For ABYA members the process begins with the two day introductory course and then a probationary period (usually one year) working in a brokerage office. The speakers on the introductory course are marine industry professionals in their specialist fields and provide topical and instructive lectures relating to Marine Law, VAT, Insurance, Marine Finance, Registration, the Internet, Selling Skills, Surveying & the RCD, plus an insight into new boat sales.

After the probationary period members can apply for the basic accreditation level of membership.

Members have access to the secretariat of ABYA and links with marine lawyers and HMRC contacts. At all times members must maintain Professional Indemnity insurance to a suitable level and will be required to maintain their legal and technical knowledge and skills through a process of Continuous Professional Development.

ABYA has a scheme of Continuous Professional Development (CPD) whereby members have to collect a certain number of points every three years. Points can be earned from attending training and development activities organised by ABYA or other bodies, as long as they are relevant to the development of the broker or dealer in his professional life.

CPD helps members keep up to date with both legal and technical aspects of boat sales, ensuring their credibility both to the client and within the legal system.

There is also an annual senior brokers course to be attended which will carry any relevant changes to related legislation.

The next stage is an application for Full Membership. This is usually after three years.

All membership applications are scrutinised by a sitting committee of 12-13 members and membership applications are only passed if the committee feels the applicant has reached the required standard.

All members must work to the ABYA code of practice http://www.abya.co.uk/information/code-of-practice.aspx

The final stage is where members' services to the Association can be recognised with the award of Fellow or Honorary Membership but this is usually after a very significant period of time as a senior/principle broker.

I began in brokerage in 2004 and am currently a full member and newly elected committee member.

My practical sailing experience is some 20,000 miles of long distance cruising and I have RYA Dayskipper Practical and Yachtmaster Theory.

Last edited by jonic; Yesterday at 21:25.
 
JumbleDuck said:
Thank you. So there is no formal qualification, no examination and only two days of formal instruction? That doesn't seem like much, but I presume the professional indemnity insurers are happy with it.
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I tried to give a decent informative answer to you. What is your agenda and what are you publicly trying to imply about all of us who work in the industry and the companies who provide our professional indemnity insurance?
 
Or perhaps brokers use lawyers and accountants if there are thorny problems? I imagine that most sales are pretty straightforward.[/QUOTE said:
I suppose you missed that part too?

Members have access to the secretariat of ABYA and links with marine lawyers and HMRC contacts.


After 10 years and 3443 posts offering page after page of advice on all aspects of brokerage, VAT, RCD etc both online and offline to some really great people on here.

I am finally putting an end to it. I am sick and tired of these kinds of conflicts now.

Those that want help - PM me but I shan't be posting on the subject again.
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jonic said:
I am finally putting an end to it. I am sick and tired of these kinds of conflicts now.

.
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That's a shame. I have learned lots from your posts. You are within your rights but i hope you reconsider.

FWIW i have only ever dealt with one broker and they went out of their way to get a tricky sale through, including driving us from corfu to levkas to view our boat. Ok we'd booked flights which is some investment.

On quals, The process you describe seems to be more rigorous than i would have expected and worth much more than some other 'qualifications', e.g. correspondence courses for surveying.

It is interesting that i would have thought that there would be no problem with a sea trial until i learned more about it, so one could forgive the OP for asking. Actually i was more interested in an engine test than anything else which my surveyor did. I didn't sail my boat til i'd bought it.

The house analogy is not so unreasonable. The boat process seems more robust in a way, i.e. once surveyed, the boat does not go out again. With houses, from exchange to completion the vendors continue to live in the property with lots of scope to damage it after the survey.

DonHeist, boat buying novice
 
obmij said:
R'od

Out of interest, what did you learn from your 'trial sail' and why didn't you make an offer?
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The boat in question was a Sigma 33, not having helmed one before I was uncertain about the main sheet traveller bisecting the cockpit, if I would find this too constrictive etc.
I helmed the boat for about 30 mins through a few tacks and gybes etc, with the owner and his friend handling the winches and mainsheet, fwd of the traveller. I was glad to learn that there was still plenty space in the cockpit and that I was able to move freely around the tiller without stepping across the traveller.
I don't know how else I could have satisfied myself on this point without that half hour.
She was nice boat, well kept and presented, I was getting quite keen on her but unfortunately my wife said that she would like something with a little more space below, so we didn't progress matters and hence the Westerly now coming into focus.
 
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