On the horns of a dilemma.

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Giblets

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My long term neighbour and crew-mate who regularly sails out with me on my little boat (and very much enjoys doing so) has just presented me with a bit of a stunning offer/suggestion.

Apparently, next year one of his investments matures and, as he does not need the capital or any income from same to live on, he would like to use the monies to buy a yacht for cruising on which we can both use either together or individually. He will pay for the boat plus all the upkeep, marina berth, etc. and would expect me to contribute towards the expenses when we are out and about. My involvement in the yacht would be to act as crew/skipper, to “teach” him to sail, navigate and boat handle and generally to “run” the boat. He has just turned 65 and I reach that grand age in December and plan to cut back on work after then. He has suggested perhaps some longer passages like cross Channel and down to the West Country as well as pootling about the Solent.

His main criteria is that the boat has at least 6ft headroom down below (as he is fed up with having to grovel about on my little boat), have good sized berths, be sound and well built, easy to sail short handed and be generally well equipped. He is talking in the region of having £50k available but I have suggested that he considers spending up to £30k on the boat and the rest on upkeep and general owning expenses.

I have also recommended, nay insisted, that he take some type of formal professional tuition which he fully agrees with and is prepared to do preferably on a one-to-one basis.

So after having got over the initial shock (it's not every day that someone offers to buy a boat and pay for all the running expenses and let one loose on it) I got to thinking as to what boat would suit this requirement. My initial thoughts were something in the 25 to 30 foot range as this would seem be of a manageable size for two people. I have in the back of my mind that perhaps a Vancouver 27 would meet the requirements although am a little concerned at her well known close quarters handling characteristics.

So I am seeking the vast combined knowledge of the learned members herein as to their thoughts on suitable choices together with the relevant pros and cons.

And, no, I will not let anyone have his name and number so don't ask!!! :D
 
Despite what seajet believes, a small boat isn't always best. A fairly modern 35 footer will be easily handled by two, will give you both space to move around below and won't be too jittery underway. If your both going to be 65 you probably want a boat a bit more stable than most of the sub 30 footers out there.
 
Buy a modern up to date 35 ish feet yacht, with all the comforts and toys which will make it easy to sail and go a bit further. I presume the intention is to keep the boat for the next 5 to 15 years, at which time the glorious age of 70 and onwards will be closer and therefore more comfort will be necessary in order to carry on enjoying sailing.

Convenient gadgets such as bow thrusters and boom roller for the main and electric winches will make it possible to carry on sailing for much much longer. What an opportunity, go for it.
 
Giblets said:
So I am seeking the vast combined knowledge of the learned members herein as to their thoughts on suitable choices together with the relevant pros and cons.
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That's intriguing! I'm thinking of the fun you two will have, visiting many boats at boat shows, ploughing through brochures and websites, fending off the hordes of yacht brokers ( ;) )

There will be a couple of good sailing schools near where you are presently berthed. Certainly, the principals will be pleased to show you over their boats and maybe even encouraging you to participate in trial sails/short handing courses. I'm certain you will both find that a modern boat, with modern systems, is quite easily handled - and you will have no difficulty whatever with boats larger than your '25 to 30 foot range', up to/including 36'.

As for ranging further afield, certainly. Any boat where the ocean is kept on the outside, which can be moved along and steered, is capable of carrying you to the Channel Islands and the West Country. So don't wait for next year's windfall - go further this year..... in what you have. Yes you can..... IMHO.
 
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Things I would consider, and I apologise for any mutual exclusivity -
  • Tiller rather than wheel - makes moving round cockpit easier
  • Deep cockpit -rules out stern cabin in 30'ish boats
  • Mainsheet in cockpit near winches and tiller - rules out coachroof abominations
  • Something without too wide an arse - heels in a gust rather than rounds up uncontrollably
  • Cutter rig is good - separates sail area into more easily handled chunks - avoid huge genoas or mains
  • Lowish freeboard - makes boarding from a dinghy, picking up moorings, etc. easier
  • Wide sidedecks with shrouds outboard
  • Powered anchor winch and large chain locker
  • ... and above all, a pretty boat with reasonable overhangs, decent shear - something with lots of RAF (Row Away Factor)
Have fun!
 
With 30k ish to play with, he is in the box seat.

I would not buy anything too old and newer boats have their own particular disadvantages for shorthanding in the full blossom of age. As you plod on a bit, comfort is nice and you would not want to be intimidated into not using the boat in, say, ten years time. I would shop in the 30 to 34 foot LOA bracket.

Something with a good immersed volume, stoutly built, modest topsides, without teak deck, white hull, electric anchor winch, slab reefing, roller genoa and max draught of 5ft 6in.

A number of Westerlies would suit, ditto Sadlers. I might consider spending a bit more and look st the Victoria 34.
It's great spending other folks money:-]

PS,
Just read the above post, yes, tiller every time.
 
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There is a huge range or boats you can choose from in that price bracket. I would seriously consider of you want a fin or bilge keel. If you have watched any of the KTL videos you will see the benefit of a shallow draft boat. The penalty is performance, but if you have time on your hands this might be a good option as it opens up so many possibilities, even in the solent you probably double the number of destinations available to you.

Why don't you look at something like a Westerly Seahawk?

http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/westerly-seahawk/westerly-seahawk.htm
 
Giblets said:
My initial thoughts were something in the 25 to 30 foot range as this would seem be of a manageable size for two people. I have in the back of my mind that perhaps a Vancouver 27 would meet the requirements although am a little concerned at her well known close quarters handling characteristics.
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I'm not going to spend ages on here trying to convince you of how lovely a sailer the V27 (or V28) indeed is, especially for single or two-handed sailing, how secure, intelligently-designed in the more traditional vein, well-built, etc etc, nor how I have virtually no difficulties in manoeuvring my own V27 in tight, tidal conditions forward or astern, etc.

But if you and your partner would like to have a go on one, then PM me. I keep her on the Hamble and would be delighted to take you out on a weekend or even on a weekday during the summer holidays.

On the other hand, as others have suggested, there are a wide range of other, mostly lighter yacht designs to choose from, in a choice of sizes.
 
Be wary of people's personal recommendations - they tend to reflect the boats they have - or the ones they dream of owning, rather than what might be suitable for you and your mate!

As already said there is a vast choice of boats that will meet the brief as far as the basics, and which you choose will be personal to you. One of the problems is that if you (and particularly your mate who is paying) do not have the experience to know what you like and don't like, you are unlikely to get the "right" boat first time.

Therefore, lot to be said for following suggestions already of buying a mainstream boat such as the Moody, or similar Sadler, Westerly etc which are known quantities, quite capable of cruising in the areas you mention, well within budget, can be bought in ready to go condition and easily sold after a couple of years finding out what you really want (which might be very different from the detailed spec suggested earlier). You can then concentrate on learning to get the best out of it.

Of course there are other considerations such as where you are going to keep it and the associated costs, but comfortable cruising for 2 mature gents is better with a boat at least 30', and you may well find horizons widen if you go up to 36', in which case you might want to ignore the prejudice against wheel steering, centre cockpits, in mast reefing, bow thrusters, and all the other things necessary or useful to make use of the potential of a larger boat.

Finally, although I don't know the nature of your relationship with your mate, you might give some consideration to the way you operate your partnership so that you are both clear about expectations and particularly about how you might part good friends if it does not work out. There are some suggestions on different ways for partnerships to be set up on the RYA site which you might find helpful.

And BTW if you want to have a look at what you could get for the top end of the budget you are welcome to come and look at my boat. Has none of the features suggested earlier, except it is good looking - but it has cruised extensively between Greece and UK with a small crew of mature people.
 
Giblets said:
I have in the back of my mind that perhaps a Vancouver 27 would meet the requirements although am a little concerned at her well known close quarters handling characteristics.
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You need to think of what boat would please him not yourself. And maybe his wife too. An old Vancouver is not everyones dream boat and indeed most people these days would not want anything that old. So you need to talk to him about things like toilets and sleeping cabins and cockpit space, avoiding with some care landing him with your idea of a desireable boat as opposed to his. I would question even the 30k vs 50k idea you have - why on earth would he need to keep 20k on one side?
 
My advice is charter 'till you both know what you want - weekends, off-season. Take up the offers already made and try out other peoples boats too. Get out and look round boats with your friend and discuss what you like and what you don't like. Draw up a check-list and measure boats against it.

Most of all, be honest about what you want to get out of it instead of dreaming. My dad is 65, phsically active and fit, he cruises the West Coast of Scotland and has one of these. It suits him down to the ground, warm, comfortable, sheltered steering, easy to handle, sails surprisingly well.

IMG_0430.JPG


More pics here (it's not my dads boat but the same model) ....

https://picasaweb.google.com/timotorssonen/2009_06_24

Anyway, whatever happens, have fun, the hunt will be an adventure in itself.
 
Giblets said:
My initial thoughts were something in the 25 to 30 foot range as this would seem be of a manageable size for two people. I have in the back of my mind that perhaps a Vancouver 27 would meet the requirements although am a little concerned at her well known close quarters handling characteristics.

:D
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Having just moved from a little un myself (Sadler25 fin and skeg)) to a Vancouver 28 I was a little concerned about how I would find the handling close quarters what with all the talk about long keelers and don't go in reverse etc. All I have to report is that I have found the Vancouver to be easier to manouvre than I envisaged and easier than the Sadler. Even reversing out of marina berths and 360 turns in restricted spaces. So don't believe all they say about them.
 
You lucky, lucky man. If you are thinking of the Vancouver, the 28 has more head room than the 27 as I understand it. Oh and the choice of two internal layouts which might suit your needs better, and well within budget.
 
dansaskip said:
Having just moved from a little un myself (Sadler25 fin and skeg)) to a Vancouver 28 I was a little concerned about how I would find the handling close quarters what with all the talk about long keelers and don't go in reverse etc. All I have to report is that I have found the Vancouver to be easier to manouvre than I envisaged and easier than the Sadler. Even reversing out of marina berths and 360 turns in restricted spaces. So don't believe all they say about them.
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greggron said:
You lucky, lucky man. If you are thinking of the Vancouver, the 28 has more head room than the 27 as I understand it. Oh and the choice of two internal layouts which might suit your needs better, and well within budget.
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Ahem, excuse me!

You two people need to check first with Tranona whether you're allowed to punt Vancouver 27's or 28's!

If any make or model of boat doesn't suit Tranona, then it isn't going to suit the OP.

Okay?!
 
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