On being "Hove to"...

Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

If we're trading definitions, here's Mirriam Webster, far more authoritative than Wiki style efforts

"heave to : to halt the headway of a ship (as by positioning a sailboat with the jib aback and the rudder turned sharply to windward)"


(bear in mind that hove is a conjugation of heave)

"BTW - "heaving to" is a deliberate act, being caught "in irons" is usually the result of some sort of cockup. Not the same thing at all."

I quite agree, but your definition (A vessel that has come up into the wind and stopped) is not of heaving to but is closer to being in irons, or in stays.

Incidentally 'hove to' is a not a vessel, as your definition states. Neither is 'hove to' a noun as your definition states. Which is why I called you dictionary specious (superficially plausible, but actually wrong )

BTW, from the Oxford: "heave to Nautical (of a boat or ship) come to a stop, esp. by turning across the wind leaving the headsail backed "

Across the wind, you'll note, not up into it.

My suspicion (but only that) is the expression comes from the need to haul (or heave) in the windward sheets. Thus the order to the crew when preparing to perform the evolution might well have been "heave (sheets) to (windward)".
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

My apologies - as the first to suggest a DAKA connection, I maligned you most cruelly.

Hove to - my understanding is that it is when a sailing vessel adjusts its sails and helm to act against each other so that there is a balance between forward and sternward motion which requires no steering or sail adjustment to maintain . To do this the vessel must head up into the wind, but not head to wind (it would just go backwards, pay off in one direction or the other and would require sail and helm change to correct!). The end result will always involve leeway and for most yachts some degree of forward motion. I don't think this contradicts any of your definitions - and incidentally I concur that boats under engine can perform the same manoeuvre by balancing windage against engine and helm but again not directly head to wind.
Performing this manoeuvre can be done with the largest fore and aft sail to port or starboard - if to port the vessel is, by definition, on starboard tack which makes it stand-on to most other vessels, including sailing vessels on starboard tack which will either be windward boats or overtaking. Above applies to square-rigged , bermudan, etc.

The error in your understanding is the assumption that "into the wind" is synonymous with "head-to-wind".

... and finally please tell us under which COLREG a vessel with sails hoisted, i.e. "set", and no mechanical propulsion, is give-way to a mobo underway (other than under Rules 9. 10 or 13)?
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

Sorry but your 'logic' does not hold. Consider this analogy:

I step onto a conveyor belt and start walking at 3 miles per hour against the direction of travel of the conveyor belt. If the belt is also moving at 3 mph, I am not getting anywhere - but you cannot say that I am not walking.
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

Can I interject a little "common sense" (whatever that may mean & whatever bearing it has on anything)?

If I am stationary I expect anyone who is moving, to manouvre around me. That applies whether I am on a boat, a horse, a bike, a car or walking. Otherwise one would be expecting buoys, lighthouses, rocks & sandbanks to give way!
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

[ QUOTE ]

... the skipper of a hove to sail boat can't take too long on the b*g or linger over his coffee down below, as he may need to take action to avoid a vessel that is NUC or also drifting while hove to. He can't rely on other vessels automatically avoiding him to observe the colregs just because he is a sail boat when "hove to" - that's all of the point I was trying to make.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is a fair statement.

But it still means that any motor driven boat is the give way vessel to a hove to sailing boat.

Hopefully you will take on board the definitions which Twister ken has given you.
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

[ QUOTE ]
So when I, sailing single-handed, heave-to (on starboard tack) to pop below for a dump, exactly what signal should I make?

[/ QUOTE ]

Strained by draught obviously /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

"Guys, I really am not Daka". - Good Oh. He's a bit daft.

"I really didn't want to stir up such a hornet's nest with one of my first few posts, "

Ah - picking a ColReg issue is guaranteed to create hornet's nests from thin air

"It was a single sentence intended to refute the suggestion that a hove to vessel has any "rights" over other vessels."

You are right. Nobody has rights

"Having said that, there still seems to be a lot of confusion as to what being "hove to" actually means - people still talking about being hove to on the starboard tack, or while under sail, or while still moving."

There isn't any confusion unless you bring a dictionary into this. A sailing vessel hove to is still sailing. It has executed a process to bring sails and rudder into a harmony that reduces forward movement to the minimum possible. But a hove to vessel is never stationary in my experience. Some have unfairly suggested I sail faster hove-to! Generally speaking it will be moving at about a knot, slightly less slightly more.

"This is the original definition of being "hove to" that I posted, and here is another one to support it - see the section on phrasal verbs. If like twister ken you disagree then please feel free to post a link to a 3rd party web site supporting your definition of what it means to be "hove to"."

That second definition is way off. Heaving to does not make a ship head into the wind. It will generally point towards the direction the wind is coming from but it adopts an attitude of the head off the wind riding comfortably over the seas. Somebody else's definiton. Well - the MacMillan Yachtsman's almanac spends best part of half a page in small print describing the heave-to. The trouble here is dictionary shorthands. Once hove-to a vessel is very stable but the process can include lashing the helm. Clearly such a vessel is in no position to react quickly to Mobos under way who can manoevre. It's no good saying that they shouldn't lash their helm. If they need to do so they need to do so. The vessel is under command and is sailing. Yachtsmen are taught to heave to on the starboard tack where possible so they are the stand on vessel in as many situations as possible.

"From my knowledge of sailing history the term "hove to" came into usage in the RN in the 17th/18th centuries in regard to three-masted, square-rigged ships of the line (2000 tonners) when they wanted to stop at a specific location to drop anchor etc. Thus the procedure was to turn up into the wind until the way came off the ship - this became known as heaving to. To actually make the ship stationary apart from drift."

No sorry scribble. Turning head to wind is not heaving to. Even turning head to wind and backing a sail is not heaving to. It's just simply turning head to wind and backing a sail. And a hove to vessel is not drifting. It might not be going very fast; the skipper will have little or no choice about direction of movement but the vessel is actually under command.


"Consequently -

Quote from webcraft
A motor boat cannot ever be hove to. You are adrift, not hove to.
Wrong - see my second citation, part 2."

Interesting. I've been on a Ferry off Calais which had to wait out a gale. Skipper turned ino the wind and balanced the vessel on his engines. Hove to or what? We certainly were not adrift.

"Quote from Twister_ken
A hove to vessel has set some sails to one side and some to another, such that in conjunction with the rudder they counteract each other to bring the vessel almost to halt.

If you are only "almost" at a halt then you are not actually hove to. You are just slowing down."

Sorry you are completely wrong here. I don't think you can take a dislike to a sailing term that has been in use and understood for at least 200 years and redefine it. It is impossible to stop a vessel by the process of heaving to. I invite you on board the noble and ancient vessel TG next season to try. It's an interesting process.


"Quote from Pye_end
By your definition, a sailing boat under way and sailing - with no wind and therefore not making way - may have to get out of the way of a motor vessel.

That's not what I was talking about at all - I was referring to the situation where the vessel normally propelled by sails is hove to - eg is explicitly NOT actually sailing, just under way but stationary. Under the colregs this vessel does not have to be given way to by other vessels, regardless of what form of propulsion the other vessel may have. I was talking about a motor vessel with its engines off."

A sailing vessel hove to is being propelled by its sails. The front flappy thing is trying to turn the yacht away from the wind and the rear flappy thing is trying to turn the yacht into the wind. The theory is to balance the two and then stall the vessel by putting the helm hard over. Because it needs the helm hard over, it has to be lashed and therefore the vessel is slow to respond to command. But stationary cannot be achieved and if it could some of the benefit of being hove to would go as the gentle movement away from the wind and waves contributes to provide a reduction in heel and a gentle motion over angry seas.

"In the situation where a vessel of any kind is hove to and there is a risk of collision it is the duty of both skippers to maintain a good lookout and take appropriate action. This would mean that the skipper of a hove to sail boat can't take too long on the b*g or linger over his coffee down below, as he may need to take action to avoid a vessel that is NUC or also drifting while hove to. He can't rely on other vessels automatically avoiding him to observe the colregs just because he is a sail boat when "hove to" - that's all of the point I was trying to make."

Yes, there is still a duty of maintaining a look out but heaving to on the starboard tack moves the vessel up 'the food chain' of stand on vessels. A skipper who tried to stay as the stand on vessel when someone NUC was drifting down on them would be failing the duties imposed elsewhere in the regs (and probably a bit of a prat)

Well it passes away the long winters days don't it?
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

There is a basic difference between 'heaving to' and 'lying hove to' (or to highlight the delightful inexactitudes of our language "heaving to", and "heaving to" /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ). It may well be that Nelson, Hornblower and co used it in square riggers to bring the vessel 'to' in a specific place. I imagine there was a fair bit of 'heaving' involved for the crew! It was also used by them to describe a means of slowing the ship down by means of backing usually the foretops'l, known as heaving (the foretopsl) 'to' to prevent the ship moving too far off station, in a way rather similar to modern vessels backing their jibs so setting the foresails pulling against the action of the main or aft sails.

However, in sailing parlance a fore and aft rigged vessel 'heave to' has a very specific meaning, described clearly by 'Wikipedia': 'In sailing, heaving to (also heave to) is a way of slowing the boat's forward progress, fixing the helm and foresail position so that the boat doesn't have to be actively steered, thereby allowing the crew to attend other tasks. It is commonly used for a "break" while waiting out a storm, or by the solo sailor as a way to provide time to go below deck or attend to issues elsewhere on the boat (including taking a lunch break).

So Twister Ken and others are quite right: whatever the term may have meant to Nelson and Hornblower, in current useage it has the clearly defined and accepted meaning of the the manoever described by Wikipedia, is taught as such in sailing schools by both professional and amateur yachtsmen, and is the correct term to use to describe that specific manoever.
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

Whilst your description of how a square-rigged ship may heave to is correct, the remainder of your post does not agree with the Oxford Dictionary of English (ISBN 0-19-861263-X 1998) definition of Heave to, which is on page 849, under heave. I quote:
Heave to (of a boat or ship) come to a stop, especially by turning across the wind leaving the headsail backed.

Defined in this manner, it applies to both square-rigged and modern marconi-rigged vessels.

As to the main points of this thread:

A) Rule 3: The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

Note: There is no reference to the state of the vessel: under way, making way, or whatever. There is only a requirement to be UNDER SAIL, that is, to have sail(s) set.

B) Rule 18: Responsibilities between vessels
Except where Rules 9 (i.e. Narrow Channels), 10 (i.e. Traffic separation schemes) and 13 (i.e. Overtaking) otherwise require: A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre;
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing;
(iv) a sailing vessel;
etc.

That rule is in section 2, Conduct of vessels in sight of one another.

Note: there is no restriction on the state of the sailing vessel. It is only required to be visible and to be a sailing vessel. FULL STOP. It doesn't matter which tack the sailing vessel is on, whether or not she is going about, wearing about, under way, making way or whatever -- the power-driven vessel "shall keep out of the way".

Your statement in an earlier post "Actually, if you are hove to and not actually sailing then the mobo is not automatically the "give way" vessel" is in contradiction to the Rules, as indicated by "awol" and my comments above.

In a later post you said: "The definition of a sailing vessel is "one propelled by sails alone". That is not correct -- it is a vessel "under sail" and not using propelling machinery.

In that same post you said "Thus if properly hove to (ie stopped) the vessel is not "propelled by sails" and the mobos give way rule doesn't apply." That is wrong. See my above quotes from the Rules, and accompanying comments.

You go on to say:
"Whether it is stationary or not doesn't affect its rights. If its not stationary its not actually hove to". No vessel that is not moored, berthed, aground or at anchor can be fully stationary -- a vessel is influenced by the tide, currents and wind, especially the latter in the case of a vessel with sails hoisted: a SAILING vessel. Even a square-rigger hove-to will make some headway, or maybe even a slight amount of sternway if not trimmed correctly. Both fore-and-aft and square-rigged vessels will make quite a bit of leeway when hove-to.

Then you say: "you can't be hove to and on the port tack - these are mutually exclusive". They are not mutually exclusive -- they are different concepts altogether. Hove to or not is one thing, the tack a vessel is on is another. The latter is defined, in the case of a Marconi-rigged vessel, as the side opposite to that on which her mainsail lies. If no mainsail is hoisted, the largest sail flying should be used in the determination. IIRC, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the main course is used in the determination of tack. Similar determinations can be described for lateen rig, junk rig, gaff rig, etc.

You also stated in that same post: "according to (link provided) a vessel that is hove to is one that has come up into the wind and stopped." The link provided is to www.seatalk.info. The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea defines Heave-to as:
"To lay a sailing ship on the wind with her helm a-lee and her sails shortened and so trimmed that as she comes up to the wind she will fall off again on the same tack and thus make no headway".

Thus, heave-to is NOT to bring her up to the wind. In fact she lies at some angle to the wind.

The definition is obviously made with sailing ships in mind. Note that it makes no mention of leeway. The no headway requirement makes it difficult in practice to heave-to a square-rigger, as most will make some headway or even sternway if she is not trimmed correctly. The task is even more difficult in the case of modern fore-and-aft rigged vessels, as they tend to make some headway (and much leeway) when hove-to. IMHO, the definition should be changed to state "making little or no headway".

However, whether or not a hove-to vessel is actually hove-to is not relevant to the question of responsibilities between vessels -- the power-driven vessel must keep out of the way of a sailing vessel FULL STOP.


In a later post, you state: "In the situation where a sailing vessel is properly hove to - eg stationary (not making a knot or two due to sails being set) and there is a risk of collision with a mobo the skippers will have to both take action and be keeping a proper watch."

That is not correct. The stand-on vessel must hold her course and speed until she "finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided ...." when "she shall take such action as will best ....". See rule 17, and read it carefully -- very carefully.

Quote: "What if in this hypothetical situation the mobo is also hove to with engines off and there is risk of collision due to leeway? Who should take action then? "

Initially only the mobo. When she "finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided ...." then the sailing vessel "SHALL take such action as will best ...".

As WebCraft pointed out: a mobo cannot be hove-to, only a sailing vessel. By definition.


awol replied earlier to that post, and you replied to him:

"If she's "under sail" she can't be properly hove to. "

Utterly and completely wrong.
You can be hove-to ONLY if you have sails set -- there is no other way to do it. Hove-to is not the same as being under bare poles, just in case you were thinking along those lines.

"If she's "hove-to" she's not "under sail" so doesn't qualify as a sailing vessel."
Wrong again -- If she is hove-to she is most certainly under sail -- there is no other way to do it. The state is achieved by the particular set of the sails in use.


Quote:
"Having said that, there still seems to be a lot of confusion as to what being "hove to" actually means - people still talking about being hove to on the starboard tack, or while under sail, or while still moving."

Maybe you are confused, I don't know, but I am certainly not in the least confused, all In My Humble Opinion, of course. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote:
"people still talking ..." FFS, read carefully my earlier comments. You can and should or must talk about the tack on which you are or were hove-to or on which you wish to heave-to. Otherwise your intentions may not be understood.

Quote:
"or while under sail, or while still moving." See all my earlier comments. You obviously do not understand the concepts correctly. Until you do .....

Quote:
"but as I understand it a boat that is still making any way under sail (even only 1 - 2 knots) or that is still propelled in any direction by her sails is not "hove to" by the strict definition of the term".

Not correct. However, change that to Headway and remove the part about being "propelled in any way" and I'm with you, except for being maybe too strict about the amount of permitted headway, and the lack of mention of sternway.

Quote:
"A motor boat cannot ever be hove to. You are adrift, not hove to.
Wrong - see my second citation, part 2."
Conflicts with the Oxford dictionary. However, the Oxford Companion does make some mention of a steamship being hove-to in bad weather, so you may be right, but I'm not yet ready to accept that, until you present more authoritative references. Internet references are in general not too reliable, and that's an understatement.

"Quote from Twister_ken
A hove to vessel has set some sails to one side and some to another, such that in conjunction with the rudder they counteract each other to bring the vessel almost to halt.

If you are only "almost" at a halt then you are not actually hove to. You are just slowing down.".

Strictly speaking, may be correct, but see my earlier comments about the practical difficulties of making no headway.


Quote:
"I was referring to the situation where the vessel normally propelled by sails is hove to - eg is explicitly NOT actually sailing, just under way but stationary. Under the colregs this vessel does not have to be given way to by other vessels, regardless of what form of propulsion the other vessel may have."

Wrong, completely and utterly wrong and misleading. See my earlier comments and read the Rules, carefully.


So now, StrakerYrius, what has most irked me about this thread is that other readers may go away with an incorrect or downright dangerous understanding of the Rules based on some of your statements.

My comments here are not made in an offensive spirit, but solely to correct those points you obviously did not understand fully. I sincerely hope you now have a more complete understanding of the relevant Rules, or at least an intention to read them more carefully in the future.

Oh, and one last point. In my experience, many internet reference works are often way off the mark. In some cases so far off as to be legally actionable, IMHO, of course. This is especially so in some specialist or technical areas, translation glossaries, historical information, especially where the events described are more recent and had or still have some element of conflict, armed or not, etc.
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

Ok. Here we go...

Motor vessel going very slowly into a headwind and heavy sea is "Dodging", (Not Dogging - you might think that. I couldn't possibly comment.)

Sailing vessel using her tripped anchor and sails to crab sideways across a river/ tide is "drudging".

Vessel using her anchor to turn her head to face across the wind is "club hauling"

Sailing vessel in the eye of the wind, sails flogging is "in irons".

Sailing vessel tacks through wind, and leaves headsail(s) backed, rudder to windward is "Hove to". Forces balanced, may "drift" to leeward a bit at 1/2 knot.

Same vessel backing enough sails or slackening off the main enough may even go backwards under control, and is "Sternboarding".

I'll get my coat.
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

Ah. Troubled oil on water! Excellent. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

1/2 a knot. There's posh. If I were honest I would have to admit not being able to balance TG that well very often. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Drudging. I find I'm good, no excellent at that in the middle of the night; particularly when still 'au bunk' /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

[ QUOTE ]
Then you say: "you can't be hove to and on the port tack - these are mutually exclusive". They are not mutually exclusive -- they are different concepts altogether. Hove to or not is one thing, the tack a vessel is on is another. The latter is defined, in the case of a Marconi-rigged vessel, as the side opposite to that on which her mainsail lies. If no mainsail is hoisted, the largest sail flying should be used in the determination. IIRC, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the main course is used in the determination of tack. Similar determinations can be described for lateen rig, junk rig, gaff rig, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with almost everything in your post, with the exception of the paragraph I've quoted. Colregs don't actually talk about port or starboard tack; they talk of the vessel with the wind on the port or starboard side. Rule 19(d) says
"For the purposes of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite to that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried."
Not the main course.
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

There isnt any argument

(a) Motor boats cant "heave to" the action requires sails
(b) motor boats can Dodge or "jog" is also a term I've used
(c) Hove to is still sailing to argue otherwise is nonsense, the person or people arguing that Hove to is stopped have never been on a sailing boat in their lives.
(d) mobo hence have to keep clear of hove to sailing boats. ( asuming that they are not using their propulsion units
(e) Hove to on the starboard tack means that other sailing vessels have to keep clear.
(f) Its debatable whether NUC can be applied to teh Hove to situation in my opinion its up to teh skipper, but its a valid signal

Its amazing that some people can make a debate out of this!
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

To the contrary, I have been 'hove to' in a vessel of length 212 metres. The wind on the port bow and the engine 'Dead Slow Ahead' to hold her steady as the storm passed. That is 'Hove to' in a motor boat by any standard /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

Trust me, in a storm 10 with seas rushing down the length of the deck and over the hatches, we were 'hove to' and going nowhere, even if we wanted to /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I also noted a renewed interest in religion from more than one or two of the crew.
 
Re: On being \"Hove to\"...

Ah well Seagreen did start this entire thread with the words "Just for the sake of argument.."

Thanks to everyone for their comments and taking the time to "put me right" - the disagreement does largely seem to be be due to my "classic" nautical dictionary understanding of the meaning of "Hove to" compared to how it is used in modern sailing parlance. Thus we will have to agree to disagree.
 
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