Older Westerly OceanLord

[doug748]

Despite the claims of Westerly/Moody fans, these older boats generally do not have "a far heavier fibre glass layup than boats of today". It's one of those great boating myths which is spread by hearsay. You can check the facts fairly easily by looking at the figures for displacement (total weight) and ballast (weight of the keel). If you subtract the ballast weight from the displacement, you'll get the weight of the hull. For similar-sized boats, rig weights are similar, so the hull weight gives you an indication of how comparatively "heavily built" the boats are.

For example, the Westerly Oceanlord is 12.34m long, with 9470kg disp and 3500kg ballast, giving a hull weight of 5970kg. The Bavaria Cruiser 40 (built 2008 onwards) is a bit shorter at 12.25m long, has 8680kg disp and 2780kg ballast, so hull weight of 5900kg - virtually identical.

John Morris mentioned his Westerly Sealord, and obviously loves it (despite the ongoing work required). The Sealord is 11.73m long, with 8392kg disp and 3629kg ballast, so 4763kg hull weight. The Bavaria Cruiser 38 (built 2000 onwards) is a bit shorter at 11.68m, with 7200kg disp and 2096kg ballast, so hull weight of 5104kg - a bit heavier than the Sealord.

Boats with big accommodation have big hulls. That is why smaller boats of the same hull weight can be more heavily constructed:

If heavy construction tells you anything useful, or not is another matter.

Your examples show quite nicely the compromises which are often made when you produce boats with the emphasis on accommodation.

The hull weight goes up
The ballast is trimmed
The ballast ratio falls
They tend to shy away from their canvas

You reef early.

They still can be fine boats, with great, space but they will not be bought by people who place emphasis on all round sailing performance.

 

[crewman]

Pretty sure Alba sailing at Dunstaffnage have an Oceanlord for sale. Ig has been on their charter fleet so well used.

 

[laika]

If you're going to live aboard (especially with a partner) you'll find that more modern boats have much better toilet/shower facilities, usually better galley/fridge arrangements, and often better sail-handling gear. Don't be too hung up on an aft cabin - in many more modern boats the forecabin is the cabin of choice for owners. More modern boats also tend to have been built in semi-automated factories, so the quality of fit and finish will be better, and they're unlikely to leak as readily. They also tend to be lighter and brighter inside.

The last sentence I won't argue with. The rest I suggest is an opinion you are entitled to but as someone who has lived aboard an oceanlord in the UK for most of the past 5 years I disagree with. Again, I'm wondering whether you're familiar with the top-of-the-1990 range or if you're just projecting from other earlier westerlies.

I have an en-suite head in the aft cabin and another in the saloon. Both have sinks and pull-out shower heads. Do I use the showers? No. In fact I don't think I've ever used a shower below deck on any boat. If a proper shower cubicle is on your list of requirements, yup, the oceanlord is not for you. Galley/fridge: You prefer a linear galley to a U-shaped one? Maybe that's ok for motoring round the med in summer but I think I'll stick to mine ta. I suspect that selection of the fore or aft cabin as the master is less to do with "old" vs "modern" and a bit more to do with "centre cockpit" vs "aft cockpit"? separation of the aft cabin by corridor , engine room and cockpit locker gives greater privacy and a bit of flexibility in doors to leave open to balance condensation vs warmth in winter. My boat is totally dry. I've had 10 years to sikaflex anything that isn't. The only water I mop up from the bilge has drained from the fridge. Sail handling gear? Did I mention my harken ball bearing batton cars and humungous bariant self tailers? C'mon: a boat's deck gear is a function of its deck gear, not its manufacturer or when it was built. Quality of fit and finish? I Am Not A Joiner but I believe the oceanlord compares rather favourably to the similarly sized AWBs I've sailed/visited. It does have a cosier feel to it than said AWBs which I would see as a negative for med chartering which is not what I'm using mine for.

One thing which I've noticed tends to be lacking on these AWBs is grab rails. Almost never on the saloon ceiling and sometimes not even by the companionway. I quite like the fact that wherever I am in my boat there's something to hang on to.

We all have different preferences. Fair enough. I can attest to extensive practical experience of living on one of these in the uk, I'm rather fond of it, and I would only be selling it to buy something completely different.

I note you seem to have chosen an awb which tends to be advertised for £80-100k for the displacement comparison

 

[pvb]

Boats with big accommodation have big hulls. That is why smaller boats of the same hull weight can be more heavily constructed:

Ahem... Westerly Oceanlord's beam is 4.1m, Bavaria Cruiser 40's beam is 3.99m. So which has the bigger hull?

 

[pvb]

I note you seem to have chosen an awb which tends to be advertised for £80-100k for the displacement comparison

Didn't look at prices, just looked for similar sized boats which were a bit more modern. The point I was making (successfully, I believe) is that the myth of older Westerly/Moody boats being "heavily constructed" is just that - a myth.

 

[doug748]

Ahem... Westerly Oceanlord's beam is 4.1m, Bavaria Cruiser 40's beam is 3.99m. So which has the bigger hull?

I don't mind, neither boat could be described as dinky, do you think that the Bavaria is the smaller boat?

 

[pvb]

I don't mind, neither boat could be described as dinky, do you think that the Bavaria is the smaller boat?

You tell me! I'm just pointing out the flaws in the old "heavily built" claims.

 

[doug748]

Well it seems to me the Bavaria is a bigger boat and that space is filled with furniture to make it comfy.

And that partly explains the weight you seem so attached to.

 

[pvb]

Well it seems to me the Bavaria is a bigger boat and that space is filled with furniture to make it comfy.

And that partly explains the weight you seem so attached to.

Ah, right, so the Bavaria is shorter, and narrower, but despite that you reckon it's got a bigger hull. Oh, and the Bavaria has "furniture", which presumably the Westerly lacks? And you haven't mentioned the other old myth that AWBs are built with MDF instead of real wood, presumably because it wouldn't help your argument. As for my being attached to the facts about weight, how can a boat possibly be "heavily constructed" if it doesn't weigh more? I'm constantly bemused by the ridiculous claims made by the MAB enthusiasts.

 

[doug748]

You may well be baffled by peoples' responses to open questions but I can't assist with that.

The only points I have made about hull weights are:

* It can cause confusion when smaller hulls are compared to larger ones

* Ballast ratio is important to sailing performance and your figures show why a lot of people would prefer the Westerly designs to your alternatives

* The weight of a hull means something but I'm with you, nobody is quite sure what it is.

I do not know about MDF furniture this is the first mention of it in the thread.

The Bavaria is marginally shorter and has less beam but much higher internal volume. That is my view, if this seems impossible to you then, alas, I can't help with that either.

 

[pvb]

The Bavaria is marginally shorter and has less beam but much higher internal volume. That is my view, if this seems impossible to you then, alas, I can't help with that either.

Maybe the Germans have found a way of defying logic? Or maybe you have?

 

[steve yates]

The point I was making (successfully, I believe) is that the myth of older Westerly/Moody boats being "heavily constructed" is just that - a myth.

Is it though? trying to extrapolate with weights and figures doesn't seem very accurate. Folk must have drilled holes in their hulls, so perhaps a simple question along those lines would find whether old westerly's moodys etc have thicker hulls than bavs/jens etc?

 

[Concerto]

The OP should also consider how they sit in the water. I have a Fulmar and it sits in the water. A couple of years ago I was at the Southampton Boat Show looking at new 32ft yachts. There was a force 5 SW blowing in the marina.. The modern AWB tends to sit on the water and it was an uncomfortable motion. I know it would have been much more comfortable on my 1980 Fulmar.

That same year I out sailed a Dutch Bavaria 36 of the mid 90's era between Cowes and Eastbourne, and as I sailed through his lee I took some photos of him sailing and he recipricated. When he arrived in Eastbourne, we exchanged photos. He was very taken by the wood interior of the Fulmar and prefered it to his own boat which said was spartan by comparison.

The current AWB's do not offer a real wood veneer interior, they have a layout designed for harbour use rather than for sailing, they have higher freeboards making them more difficult at slow speed for marina berthing, the truncated bows are ugly, and open ended cockpits are not so safe, twin wheels and twin rudders have to be fitted due to the wide aft sections, etc, etc. I have a boat to go sailing on and the accomodation is secondary to me. Go to a boat show and watch visitors as they board, they hardly look at the cockpit, never walk on deck as they are only interested in the interior as if it is a floating caravan.

I find the current modern AWB's currently on offer not to my taste. I decided to buy an older boat and spent a lot of time and money bringing it up to a pristine condition. What it has cost is more than it is worth, but I do not worry as I intend to get the benefit of these improvements over 12 to 15 years. The total cost will still only be about a third of buying a brand new 32ft yacht, which I could have bought. When I consider the depreciation over the period I own her, I know I will loose about £25,000 pounds - but the condition will always make it an easy sale. If I had bought a AWB and kept it for the same period, I would probably have had £60,000 of depreciation and had £80,000 more capital tied up in the boat. To me that is a no brainer.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I don't think there were any real changes, the boats were still built in sheds by what someone here once described as "little men with buckets of resin".

I've no idea how big the men Westerly employed were but, ignoring that, the technique was exactly that used by just about every boat builder at the time. Were you expecting robots and vacuum infusion in the 70's and 80's? Both were known and used but not common until well after the turn of the century.

 

[Frank Holden]

A neglected 30/35 year old boat is a neglected 30/35 year old boat... regardless of class.
Here is a good example of a neglected Sealord http://littlecunningplan.com/boat-reviews/1985-westerly-39-sealord/ . Now in Alaska and hopefully in better shape.
Keeping any boat in good order and condition will cost money.... regardless of class.
Here is an example of a well maintained Sealord... and what it takes to keep any boat in good order and condition. .. https://yachtcamomile.co.uk/job-list/maintenance-log/

Are Sealord/Oceanlords good cruising boats?... in my opinion yes.
Do they have any vices that may be class specific? Yes they ( Sealords ) do but they are well documented .... Chain plate 'staples', attachment of the baby stay, cracking of the stem head fitting, dodgy insulation on the fridge, .... thats all I can think of.... mine is one of only two out of 42(?) Sealords that I know of that have had osmosis.

Are they good sea boats? .... brilliant...

I've been throwing money at mine since 1994.....
She has been in the 'Southern Cone' since arriving in Chile from NZ in 2004... apart from a run to NZ and back for a major overhaul in 2014/15... her half life overhaul.

Whether or not you like the layout downstairs is very much a personal thing... I find it ideal for both passage making and life at anchor.

 

[Frank Holden]

PS... neglected to mention the headlining but that was a 'full on' Westerly problem.... not just these two classes....

Mine was re-done in about 1998 and 21 years on is still holding up OK... on any boat for sale you will pick if they have been done or not by just looking at the pics....

 

[pvb]

The OP should also consider how they sit in the water. I have a Fulmar and it sits in the water. A couple of years ago I was at the Southampton Boat Show looking at new 32ft yachts. There was a force 5 SW blowing in the marina.. The modern AWB tends to sit on the water and it was an uncomfortable motion. I know it would have been much more comfortable on my 1980 Fulmar.

That same year I out sailed a Dutch Bavaria 36 of the mid 90's era between Cowes and Eastbourne, and as I sailed through his lee I took some photos of him sailing and he recipricated. When he arrived in Eastbourne, we exchanged photos. He was very taken by the wood interior of the Fulmar and prefered it to his own boat which said was spartan by comparison.

The current AWB's do not offer a real wood veneer interior, they have a layout designed for harbour use rather than for sailing, they have higher freeboards making them more difficult at slow speed for marina berthing, the truncated bows are ugly, and open ended cockpits are not so safe, twin wheels and twin rudders have to be fitted due to the wide aft sections, etc, etc. I have a boat to go sailing on and the accomodation is secondary to me. Go to a boat show and watch visitors as they board, they hardly look at the cockpit, never walk on deck as they are only interested in the interior as if it is a floating caravan.

I find the current modern AWB's currently on offer not to my taste. I decided to buy an older boat and spent a lot of time and money bringing it up to a pristine condition. What it has cost is more than it is worth, but I do not worry as I intend to get the benefit of these improvements over 12 to 15 years. The total cost will still only be about a third of buying a brand new 32ft yacht, which I could have bought. When I consider the depreciation over the period I own her, I know I will loose about £25,000 pounds - but the condition will always make it an easy sale. If I had bought a AWB and kept it for the same period, I would probably have had £60,000 of depreciation and had £80,000 more capital tied up in the boat. To me that is a no brainer.

Yes, buying an old boat will always be cheaper in depreciation terms than buying a brand new boat, but it's a meaningless comparison. As for reasons why AWBs are so popular, Baggywrinkle's post in another thread is well worth a read - http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...ce-on-buying&p=6800028&highlight=#post6800028

 

[pvb]

Is it though? trying to extrapolate with weights and figures doesn't seem very accurate. Folk must have drilled holes in their hulls, so perhaps a simple question along those lines would find whether old westerly's moodys etc have thicker hulls than bavs/jens etc?

Facts and figures are tedious, aren't they, especially if they don't support our prejudices.

 

[Frank Holden]

But the OP didn't ask about buying an AWB or a Porsche or shares in Blue Sky Mining....
He asked about Westerly Oceanlords....

Hi
Just joined the forum with hope of gleaning the benefit of the collective wisdom.

Concerning a late 80s Westerly Oceanlord: how many years is one of the likely to have left in them? There are not many for sale. Is that because people don’t sell them or because most have been scrapped due to needing major rectification work to Hull or the rig needing replacement?

I like the idea of a bigger boat but I don’t have 6 figures to play with and equally don’t want to buy something which is likely to be dead in a few short years time.

Thoughts and opinions gratefully received

AWBs?
A Norwegian Jenny came south from Valdivia to Puerto Williams in 2017.... on the outside.
Went back north in May 2018 ... up the outside...
I have a nice photo of her working to windward across Canal Ballenero on the 4th May.... can't post it 'cos I have used up my photo quota...

Nothing wrong with many Westerlys
Nothing wrong with many AWBs.....

 

[dom]

Facts and figures are tedious, aren't they, especially if they don't support our prejudices.

Quite, facts are a bore which just stick around to annoy

Never a good idea to let facts get in the way of the truth