Old engine, new oil?

[forgotmyfrekinuserid]

I was told (by someone who knows) last year, that I should be using old style (mineral) engine oil in my Volvo MD7A, rather than using modern synthetic types.

I have now asked the man who is going to service the engine this year and he (and lets remember this is how he earns his living) says that he will use a modern good quality synthetic oil.

Does anyone have the definitive answer as to what I should or shouldn't be putting inside my engine?

Thanks.

 

[vyv_cox]

Use the Search facility. This has been discussed many times and I have written reams on it in the forums and an article in YM. The someone who knows is correct. Your service man is not correct.

 

[sailorman]

This covers the suject

I was told (by someone who knows) last year, that I should be using old style (mineral) engine oil in my Volvo MD7A, rather than using modern synthetic types.

I have now asked the man who is going to service the engine this year and he (and lets remember this is how he earns his living) says that he will use a modern good quality synthetic oil.

Does anyone have the definitive answer as to what I should or shouldn't be putting inside my engine?

Thanks.

GUIDE TO SAE VISCOSITY GRADES OF MOTOR OIL FOR PASSENGER CARS
API’s Service Symbol and Certification Mark identify quality engine oils for gasoline- and diesel-powered vehicles. Oils
displaying these marks meet performance requirements set by U.S. and international vehicle and engine manufacturers
and the lubricant industry. More than 500 companies worldwide participate in this voluntary program, which is backed
by a marketplace sampling and testing program.
1. Starburst: An oil displaying this mark meets the current engine protection
standard and fuel economy requirements of the International Lubricant Standardization
and Approval Committee (ILSAC), a joint effort of U.S. and Japanese automobile
manufacturers. Most automobile manufacturers recommend oils that carry the API
Certification Mark.
2. Performance Level:
Gasoline engine oil categories (for cars, vans, and light trucks with gasoline engines):
Oils designed for gasoline-engine service fall under API’s “S” (Service) categories.
See reverse for descriptions of current and obsolete API service categories.
Diesel engine oil categories (for heavy-duty trucks and vehicles with diesel engines):
Oils designed for diesel-engine service fall under API’s “C” (Commercial) categories.
See reverse for descriptions of current and obsolete API service categories.
3. Viscosity Grade: The measure of an oil’s thickness and ability to flow at certain
temperatures. Vehicle requirements may vary. Follow your vehicle manufacturer’s
recommendations on SAE oil viscosity grade.
4. Energy Conserving: The “Energy Conserving” designation applies to oils
intended for gasoline-engine cars, vans, and light trucks. Widespread use of “Energy
Conserving” oils may result in an overall savings of fuel in the vehicle fleet as a whole.
5. CI-4 PLUS: Used in conjunction with API CI-4, the “CI-4 PLUS” designation identifies
oils formulated to provide a higher level of protection against soot-related
viscosity increase and viscosity loss due to shear in diesel engines. Like Energy
Conserving, CI-4 PLUS appears in the lower portion of the API Service Symbol “Donut.”
GUIDELINES TO HELP
YOU GET MORE FROM
YOUR MOTOR OIL

Refer to your owner’s manual for
type of oil to use.

Follow manufacturer’s oil change
recommendations.

Use only the recommended API
category: “S” for gasoline engines;
“C” for diesel engines.

Select the proper SAE oil
viscosity grade.

If you find it necessary to mix
brands of oil, use the same
viscosity grade and API service
category to maintain performance.

Properly dispose of used oil.
Learn more about recycling
used oil on the web at
www.recycleoil.org. Go to
www.earth911.org for used
oil collection center locations.
Look for the API Quality Marks
every time you buy motor oil.
Ask for API-licensed oil
whenever you have your
oil changed.
3
2
4
For more information about API’s Engine Oil Program, visit our website at www.api.org/eolcs.
Copyright 2004 - American Petroleum Institute. All rights reserved. API, the API logo, the API Service Symbol (Donut), the API Service Symbol with CI-4 PLUS logo and the API
Certification Mark (Starburst) are either trademarks or registered trademarks of the American Petroleum Institute in the United States and/or other countries. Printed in U.S.A.
API Creative Services | 24137 | 09.04 | Product No. F1551MO
If lowest expected outdoor temperature is Typical SAE Viscosity Grades for Passenger Cars
0°C (32°F)
–18°C (0°F)
Below –18°C (0°F)
5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40, 20W-50
5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40
5W-20, 5W-30
1 5
MOTOR OIL GUIDE AMERICAN
PETROLEUM
INSTITUTE
API® Service Symbol
“Donut”
API® Service Symbol “Donut”
with CI-4 PLUS
API® Certification Mark
“Starburst”
® ® ®
Multigrade oils such as SAE 5W-30 and 10W-30 are widely used because, under all but extremely hot or
cold conditions, they are thin enough to flow at low temperatures and thick enough to perform satisfactorily
at high temperatures. Note that vehicle requirements may vary. Follow your vehicle manufacturer’s
recommendations on SAE oil viscosity grade.
Which oil is right for you?
The current and previous API Service Categories are listed below.
Vehicle owners should refer to their owner’s manuals before
consulting these charts. Oils may have more than one performance
level.
For automotive gasoline engines, the latest engine oil service
category includes the performance properties of each earlier
category. If an automotive owner’s manual calls for an API SJ
or SL oil, an API SM oil will provide full protection. For diesel
engines, the latest category usually – but not always – includes
the performance properties of an earlier category.
Note: API intentionally omitted “SI” and “SK” from the sequence of
categories. For more information about API’s Engine Oil Program, visit
our website at www.api.org/eolcs.
Copyright 2004 - American Petroleum Institute. All rights reserved.
API, the API logo, the API Service Symbol (Donut), the API Service
Symbol with CI-4 PLUS logo and the API Certification Mark (Starburst)
are either trademarks or registered trademarks of the American
Petroleum Institute in the United States and/or other countries.
Printed in U.S.A. Creative Services | 24137 | 09.04 | Product No. F1551MO
For all automotive engines currently
in use. Introduced November 30, 2004,
SM oils are designed to provide improved
oxidation resistance, improved deposit
protection, better wear protection, and
better low-temperature performance over
the life of the oil. Some SM oils may also
meet the latest ILSAC specification
and/or qualify as Energy Conserving.
For 2004 and older automotive engines.
For 2001 and older automotive engines.
For 1996 and older engines. Valid when
preceded by current C categories.
For 1993 and older engines.
For 1988 and older engines.
CAUTION—Not suitable for use in
gasoline-powered automotive engines
built after 1979.
CAUTION—Not suitable for use in
gasoline-powered automotive engines
built after 1971. Use in more modern
engines may cause unsatisfactory
performance or equipment harm.
CAUTION—Not suitable for use in
gasoline-powered automotive engines
built after 1967. Use in more modern
engines may cause unsatisfactory
performance or equipment harm.
CAUTION—Not suitable for use in
gasoline-powered automotive engines
built after 1963. Use in more modern
engines may cause unsatisfactory
performance or equipment harm.
CAUTION—Contains no additives. Not
suitable for use in gasoline-powered
automotive engines built after 1930.
Use in modern engines may cause
unsatisfactory engine performance
or equipment harm.
Gasoline Engines
Category Status Service
SJ Current
Current
SH Obsolete
SG Obsolete
SF Obsolete
SE Obsolete
SD Obsolete
SC Obsolete
SB Obsolete
SA Obsolete
SM
SL
Current
Diesel Engines
Category Status Service
CI-4 Current
CG-4
CF-4
CF-2
Obsolete
CF
Obsolete
CE Obsolete
CD-II Obsolete
CD
CC Obsolete
Obsolete
Current
Current
Current
Current
CB
CA
Introduced in 2002. For high-speed, four-stroke
engines designed to meet 2004 exhaust
emission standards implemented in 2002. CI-4
oils are formulated to sustain engine durability
where exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) is used
and are intended for use with diesel fuels
ranging in sulfur content up to 0.5% weight.
Can be used in place of CD, CE, CF-4, CG-4,
and CH-4 oils. Some CI-4 oils may also qualify
for the CI-4 PLUS designation.
Introduced in 1998. For high-speed, four-stroke
engines designed to meet 1998 exhaust
emission standards. CH-4 oils are specifically
compounded for use with diesel fuels ranging
in sulfur content up to 0.5% weight. Can be
used in place of CD, CE, CF-4, and CG-4 oils.
Introduced in 1995. For severe duty, high-speed,
four-stroke engines using fuel with less than
0.5% weight sulfur. CG-4 oils are required for
engines meeting 1994 emission standards.
Can be used in place of CD, CE, and CF-4 oils.
Introduced in 1990. For high-speed, four-stroke,
naturally aspirated and turbocharged engines.
Can be used in place of CD and CE oils.
Introduced in 1994. For severe duty, two-strokecycle
engines. Can be used in place of CD-II
oils.
Introduced in 1994. For off-road, indirectinjected
and other diesel engines including
those using fuel with over 0.5% weight sulfur.
Can be used in place of CD oils.
Introduced in 1985. For high-speed, four-stroke,
naturally aspirated and turbocharged engines.
Can be used in place of CC and CD oils.
Introduced in 1985. For two-stroke cycle
engines.
Introduced in 1955. For certain naturally
aspirated and turbocharged engines.
CAUTION—Not suitable for use in diesel-powered
engines built after 1990.
CAUTION—Not suitable for use in diesel-powered
engines built after 1961.
CAUTION—Not suitable for use in diesel-powered
engines built after 1959.
MOTOR OIL GUIDE AMERICAN
PETROLEUM
INSTITUTE
CH-4 Current

 

[vyv_cox]

Unfortunately not very helpful in terms of the question. Reading it with a little knowledge, you can sense that the development in diesel oils that follows the route CD > CF > CG > CH > CI etc is in response to increasingly higher temperatures, heavier duty, higher revs, fuel changes, etc. When it comes to a Volvo MD7A in a yacht, the temperature, duty and probably fuel have not changed in the slightest. Using an oil that has been designed for these changes in road vehicles does not do any favours for a yacht engine.

Advice, as ever, is do what the manufacturer recommended, probably an API CD or maybe even CC.

 

[Bilgediver]

I was told (by someone who knows) last year, that I should be using old style (mineral) engine oil in my Volvo MD7A, rather than using modern synthetic types.

I have now asked the man who is going to service the engine this year and he (and lets remember this is how he earns his living) says that he will use a modern good quality synthetic oil.

Does anyone have the definitive answer as to what I should or shouldn't be putting inside my engine?

Thanks.

I am afraid your man is totally outvoted. In fact if laying up the engine the best oil would have been a mineral oil with rust inhibitors such as the old Volvo oil however appropriate mineral oil is available from Tesco,Halfords,Lidl and Asda to name a few and is more suitable for an old engine than the modern hi spec oils developed for the extreme high temperatures in modern engines which may be turbo charged.

There is a tendency for the older engines to develope glazed liners more quickly when used with modern synthetic oils as they were designed in line with the sppec of the older mineral oils.

I suppose the fact that the mineral oil is less than half the price of your fellows suggestion will have no bearing

 

[sailorman]

Unfortunately not very helpful in terms of the question. Reading it with a little knowledge, you can sense that the development in diesel oils that follows the route CD > CF > CG > CH > CI etc is in response to increasingly higher temperatures, heavier duty, higher revs, fuel changes, etc. When it comes to a Volvo MD7A in a yacht, the temperature, duty and probably fuel have not changed in the slightest. Using an oil that has been designed for these changes in road vehicles does not do any favours for a yacht engine.

Advice, as ever, is do what the manufacturer recommended, probably an API CD or maybe even CC.

[CH-4 oils are specifically
compounded for use with diesel fuels ranging
in sulfur content up to 0.5% weight. Can be
used in place of CD, CE, CF-4, and CG-4 oils.
Introduced in 1995. For severe duty, high-speed,
four-stroke engines using fuel with less than
0.5% weight sulfur. CG-4 oils are required for
engines meeting 1994 emission standards.
Can be used in place of CD, CE, and CF-4 oils.
Introduced in 1990. For high-speed, four-stroke,
naturally aspirated and turbocharged engines.
Can be used in place of CD and CE oils.]

 

[vyv_cox]

[CH-4 oils are specifically
compounded for use with diesel fuels ranging
in sulfur content up to 0.5% weight. Can be
used in place of CD, CE, CF-4, and CG-4 oils.
Introduced in 1995. For severe duty, high-speed,
four-stroke engines using fuel with less than
0.5% weight sulfur. CG-4 oils are required for
engines meeting 1994 emission standards.
Can be used in place of CD, CE, and CF-4 oils.
Introduced in 1990. For high-speed, four-stroke,
naturally aspirated and turbocharged engines.
Can be used in place of CD and CE oils.]

Yes, I know what it says but it is not applicable to cold-running, moderately used yacht auxiliaries.

Read your own post
- For severe duty, high-speed, four-stroke engines using fuel with less than 0.5% weight sulfur.
- For high-speed, four-stroke, naturally aspirated and turbocharged engines.
Do these sound like your typical yacht engine? They don't sound like mine.


The base number (TBN) of these oils, generically, is more than 10 and quite likely up to 16. The TBN of CD is 4 and of CC it's 3. Using high base number oils in a low specific-output engine is a known cause of bore wear.

 

[Sans Bateau]

I was told (by someone who knows) last year, that I should be using old style (mineral) engine oil in my Volvo MD7A, rather than using modern synthetic types.

I have now asked the man who is going to service the engine this year and he (and lets remember this is how he earns his living) says that he will use a modern good quality synthetic oil.

Does anyone have the definitive answer as to what I should or shouldn't be putting inside my engine?

Thanks.

The key here, says a cynic is "and lets remember this is how he earns his living", fact is he may make more money replacing engines than changing oil.

A marine engineer who put me straight on engine oils a few years ago, told me he replaces more engines that have been 'over loved' with high tech oils and low revs than ones that are genuinely knackered.

 

[Piers]

Just check with the engine manufacturer in case the manual for your engine has been updated and get it in writing.

If in any doubt whatsoever, use mineral oil.

A thought - synthetic oil is more expensive. Would the engineer supply it and therefroe earn more margin?

Once you know the spec of the correct mineral oil, you can get it direct from Shell's outlet (Emo Oil), in 20 ltr barrels, at very competitive prices, delivered straight to your door. Last time I contacted them was here 0800 685 685.

 

[vyv_cox]

Once you know the spec of the correct mineral oil, you can get it direct from Shell's outlet (Emo Oil), in 20 ltr barrels, at very competitive prices, delivered straight to your door. Last time I contacted them was here 0800 685 685.

As an ex Shell employee I am sorry to say that they no longer market an oil to API CD in UK. Until early this year they marketed it as Rimula C, but now withdrawn. It is still sold in France, as Diesel C in almost every supermarket. I buy some for my Yanmar whenever I am over there.

The same seems to apply to other brands. Exxon, Total, Elf sell API CD over there but not here as far as I can find out.

 

[sailorman]

so the CF4 15 > 40

that is the lowest spec generally available in the UK is OK then

 

[Quandary]

Marine Diesel Lubrication

I have been reading and talking about this for about 25 years since the guys in the very competent country diesel workshop who were honing my bores first told me about it. I am now sure Vyv is right in what he says, unfortunately it conflicts with the advice you get from Volvo Penta (in the user manual for my D1 30) but I have decided that they just don't want to be bothered with marketing varying oils for their different applications. As a VP user for a very long time I am afraid I have become cynical about their attitude to customer service.
So is there no reliable CD oil available in the UK?
In another similar query someone recommended the more basic version of Shell Helix but I suspect that this is also a bore glazer.

 

[lw395]

This is more a matter of faith than science.
People hold strong opinions on both sides and will not be swayed!
(I say both sides, as I think it's best to leave castrol-R out of this discussion!)
Personally I use semi-synth in everything apart from motorbikes which get fully synth.
The logic being that the bikes are highly stressed and I value them long term, whereas the cars are lower revving and the engines will outlive the body etc anyway.
According to some BMW K series riders, synthetic can adversely affect running in, because it is too effective at protecting the bores. They advocate using a mineral oil or semi for running in, changing it often, then use fully synthetic for the next 200,000 miles. After that, use something cheaper as the bike will be low value and you're going to get rid of it.

Some people will tell you that traditional oils are the reason that car engines rarely used to last 100k miles without major attention. They just weren't good enough for racing, hence the castrol-r. Nowadays fully synth gives longer life with longer service intervals

Other people have diametric views. Especially series 1 land rover fetishists. I think I saw a Royal Enfield owner claim that his bike only leaked when hot with trad oil, but all the time with synthetic.

whatever you do, someone will tell you that you are wrong!

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

re oil

I have an ancient VP MD21A in my boat

I used to use 20 50 till my local motor factor could no longer get it

I use Halfords traditional mineral oil which is £10 odd for 5 litres and change the oil twice a year and filter once a year in the spring.

It burns a healthy amount of oil that reassures me it a well worn old lump but otherwise seems very happy on it.

I don't think its even a debate now.

Euan