Bigplumbs
Well-Known Member
How sure are you about what someone else would want to read. You did of course add to the Crap as you call it with your first sentence. You could have just given the advice without the prologue
Oil analysis results
- Thread starter russ
- Start date
How sure are you about what someone else would want to read. You did of course add to the Crap as you call it with your first sentence. You could have just given the advice without the prologue
Greg2
Well-Known Member
What is the best way to take a sample Paul?
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Bigplumbs
Well-Known Member
In answer to the original post. I think you need to stand back a little and approach buying a boat from a higher level. If you get too many tests carried out (and there are several) on older boats you will generally find that most boats have some issues. The oil test is not helpful. You have already learned that once you have the results they can be misleading and apparently one test is not sufficient. You seemed to collect the oil in the wrong way. You don't know how long the oil has been in the engines or what 'work' it has done.
Buying a boat (not sure how much the asking price is against your savings) is a big leap into the unknown and at some point you need to either take that leap or not. In my view all these tests will simply cost you money and will I think generally confuse.
Being someone who has bought a few boats admittedly to lowish relative value I would advise:
Your own look and inspection and take a boating friend if possible
A survey depending on the value of the boat
Have a marine Engineer look over the engine
A sea or some sort of real life trial
Just that lot can cost possibly £700 - £1000 on a modest sized boat. If you are generally happy in your own mind with the results of the list above and assuming the price is not too much of your net worth buy it and enjoy your purchase. What ever you buy new or old a boat will have issues either immediately or in the near future.
Buying a boat (not sure how much the asking price is against your savings) is a big leap into the unknown and at some point you need to either take that leap or not. In my view all these tests will simply cost you money and will I think generally confuse.
Being someone who has bought a few boats admittedly to lowish relative value I would advise:
Your own look and inspection and take a boating friend if possible
A survey depending on the value of the boat
Have a marine Engineer look over the engine
A sea or some sort of real life trial
Just that lot can cost possibly £700 - £1000 on a modest sized boat. If you are generally happy in your own mind with the results of the list above and assuming the price is not too much of your net worth buy it and enjoy your purchase. What ever you buy new or old a boat will have issues either immediately or in the near future.
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MapisM
Well-Known Member
Bigplumbs, I'm starting to appreciate your posts, for reasons that have nothing to see with a boating forum - i.e., that psychology is another interest of mine, albeit very marginal, and as a total amateur.
Interestingly, your objection is formally irreproachable, because you are obviously correct in your evaluation of the first sentence of volvopaul.
But what makes it REALLY interesting is your capacity to overlook two facts.
Firstly, the rest of his post, which is what really matters, does contribute to the debate.
Secondly, and most importantly, in the worst case his first sentence added to the crap, while your posts (from the very first, and with the excalation that followed) started and fostered the crap.
If you think that the forum contributors are unable to understand this simple fact, I'm afraid you're underestimating them.
Oh, and just to save you the effort of pointing this out, I'm well aware that also this post of mine is adding to the crap.
Forums, eh?
Bigplumbs
Well-Known Member
Bigplumbs, I'm starting to appreciate your posts, for reasons that have nothing to see with a boating forum - i.e., that psychology is another interest of mine, albeit very marginal, and as a total amateur.
Interestingly, your objection is formally irreproachable, because you are obviously correct in your evaluation of the first sentence of volvopaul.
But what makes it REALLY interesting is your capacity to overlook two facts.
Firstly, the rest of his post, which is what really matters, does contribute to the debate.
Secondly, and most importantly, in the worst case his first sentence added to the crap, while your posts (from the very first, and with the excalation that followed) started and fostered the crap.
If you think that the forum contributors are unable to understand this simple fact, I'm afraid you're underestimating them.
Oh, and just to save you the effort of pointing this out, I'm well aware that also this post of mine is adding to the crap.
Forums, eh?
Did you read my Post 43 or just jump to the one you deemed negative, (if so what does that say about your good self) and yes indeed VolvoPauls main thrust was I am sure intended to be helpful even if it would I suspect have caused russ's head to spin
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D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Not true. An oil sample stopped me buying a lemon some years ago. We were interested in buying a rather nice Ferretti with Cat engines based in the Med. I asked a trusted technician to fly out from the UK to inspect the engines and take oil samples. The engines checked out generally OK but the oil sample results came back with an excess of Molybedenum which was puzzling because its not an element that you would normally expect to find in an engine. So I agreed with my technician that he would do another inspection of the engines but this time under sea trial conditions. This time on coming back into the berth he noticed what looked like traces of unburnt diesel fuel in the water behind the boat which on closer inspection was exiting from the exhausts. He immediately suspected worn piston rings and then when he was rummaging around the engine room he found a container of Molyslip. He then put two and two together. The owner had been aware of the fact that his engines were wearing and had been adding Molyslip to try to reduce the wear
So that original oil sample saved me from buying a boat with worn engines. I still made an offer on the boat but at a reduced price to take account of the cost of rebuilding the engines which the seller refused so I walked away
rafiki_
Well-Known Member
Good result Mike
Bigplumbs
Well-Known Member
That obviously worked in that case but are we talking about Apples and Apples here. I suspect your engines were big beasts and the boat was a expensive (relative I know) but we are talking a KAD 32 here...……….. Is that in the same ball park
How much would a replacement KAD32 cost ?
MrB
Well-Known Member
Portofino
Well-Known Member
But would it have “saved you “ if there was no oil additive added ?
If the molybdenum was the only outliner picked up ?
Just curious.
The rings get slack with low temps ,hence the classic diesel rattle at start up noticed moreso in cars .
So @ start up that’s why you get smoke initially especially when cold .
Soon dissipates when the engines warm but the cylinder temps jump from say 1-200 degrees to around 5-600 degrees or greater so the heat expansion is huge for the rings and needs to be just so otherwise they will bind .
It’s possibe on return after a blast out with a hot engine room ,by the time via marina manoeuvres the cylinder temps have cooled now as you are basically ticking over playing with the sticks .If so even though they are “warm “ they have loose rings and stuff gets past hence a rainbow type bloom .
MAN a you probably know actually write in the manual words to the effect “ idle for a max of 5 mins only “ “ avoid prolonged idling over 5 mins “ .
I think that’s what they are getting at - loose rings and stuff getting past , both ways btw .
Marine diesels in leisure boats tend to be at the highest end of tune .Not many car diesels run at or near 80 % upwards of max rpm for hours on end .
kashurst
Well-Known Member
good secondhand kad32 would be about £10K plus fitting (quick internet rummage)
a decent rebuild similar plus lifts in/out hard standing etc
new KADs no longer available
a D3 would be about £20K - £25K
oil analysis does work but done casually/infrequently can cause confusion or be misleading. Sampling methods are tricky and hard to be consistent too. A one off like sample like Deleted User describes shows molyslip was added and evidence found. However was the cause of the suspected unburnt diesel worn piston rings ?????? couldn't say but something was off so fair enough walk away. Had the owner not added molyslip, would Mike's tech have noticed anything at all as it apparently worked well at sea and the oil analysis would have been other wise OK.
the problem with big boats is we know the engines are enormously powerful, well made and extensively tested, but we treat them like they are made of china because the repair costs can be massive if you get caught out/make a silly mistake. Forums don't always help as it makes you (me) a bit paranoid as we only hear the catastrophes.
I can strip and rebuild an 2 cylinder outboard in an afternoon give or take so picking a poor one is no biggy. But I had a serious problem with a 9 litre straight 6 diesel Volvo D9 engine a few years ago. (not oil related). The VP/local techs wanted to chain-saw the deck and lift it out to do the repair. I did it myself in the end with a bit of help diagnosing the problem. It took 5 long days to take the engine apart inside the engine bay and a few weeks later when the new parts turned up (£2K), 4 days to put it all back together. At 60 euros an hour that would have been a serious bill.
I doubt there is anything wrong with Russ' engines except lack of use, The original core base engine of a kad 32 probably powered Noahs ark! However its not my money and Russ is wise to be cautious - VolvoPaul may have more insight or a specific experience, but older boats are not perfect, after all they are old and there is a risk.
a decent rebuild similar plus lifts in/out hard standing etc
new KADs no longer available
a D3 would be about £20K - £25K
oil analysis does work but done casually/infrequently can cause confusion or be misleading. Sampling methods are tricky and hard to be consistent too. A one off like sample like Deleted User describes shows molyslip was added and evidence found. However was the cause of the suspected unburnt diesel worn piston rings ?????? couldn't say but something was off so fair enough walk away. Had the owner not added molyslip, would Mike's tech have noticed anything at all as it apparently worked well at sea and the oil analysis would have been other wise OK.
the problem with big boats is we know the engines are enormously powerful, well made and extensively tested, but we treat them like they are made of china because the repair costs can be massive if you get caught out/make a silly mistake. Forums don't always help as it makes you (me) a bit paranoid as we only hear the catastrophes.
I can strip and rebuild an 2 cylinder outboard in an afternoon give or take so picking a poor one is no biggy. But I had a serious problem with a 9 litre straight 6 diesel Volvo D9 engine a few years ago. (not oil related). The VP/local techs wanted to chain-saw the deck and lift it out to do the repair. I did it myself in the end with a bit of help diagnosing the problem. It took 5 long days to take the engine apart inside the engine bay and a few weeks later when the new parts turned up (£2K), 4 days to put it all back together. At 60 euros an hour that would have been a serious bill.
I doubt there is anything wrong with Russ' engines except lack of use, The original core base engine of a kad 32 probably powered Noahs ark! However its not my money and Russ is wise to be cautious - VolvoPaul may have more insight or a specific experience, but older boats are not perfect, after all they are old and there is a risk.
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MapisM
Well-Known Member
I didn't, because it wasn't yet posted by the time I began writing mine. What does that say about my good self?
MapisM
Well-Known Member
That's bound to be a F53 with 3196 engines, I guess? And if so, do you remember the ballpark hours?
I would have thought that it should take 5 digits (or very poor maintenance) to wear those things.
Btw, unburnt diesel leaking from the exhaust sounds more like injectors in need of maintenance, rather than mechanical wear...
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
No it was a Ferretti 145 with Cat 3208TA 435hp engines IIRC and it was several years earlier than when I bought the F53. Actually after the F145 purchase fell through, I bought an AZ46 and then a Ferretti 46 before I bought the F53
The 3208TA engines (which I've had in 3 boats) were known to wear quite quickly in heavy planing boats
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Aha, I see.