Oh dear - lost bill of sale

[JumbleDuck]

It's not a bill of sale but it is proof of ownership, it shows on the back who owns the boat through the number of shares held, they can also tell a buyer if there is a mortgage on the boat, hopefully that will be enough. Don't hold me to this but I think from memory the number of shares is 64.

As others have pointed out, the certificate does not show owns the boat. It shows who owned the boat at one time in the past. It's a bit like all these VAT receipts people are so proud of - a chargeable VAT event could easily have occurred since then.

 

[Uricanejack]

A lovely boat if had not just bought a boat oh well.

If I was interested in bying I would be comfortable going through a reputable broker, seeing registration documents. a search for liens. and a noterised statement you had lost your original bill of sale.
I dont know how hard this is in uk but I had a title search done for a small fee when I purchased my boat. If it is possible in UK its what I would do.
It crertainly is what I did when I bought a house in the UK

 

[claymore]

Many thanks all for your posts and PMs. I'm a lot less worried about this than I was this morning.

Thanks again
Chris

Seems a lot of fuss fer yer auld tub. Para told me to say that.

 

[Poecheng]

In my view, the entry in the registry book is the new starting point and the boat's ownership history prior to that point does not have to be evidenced outside of the registry document - that is the purpose of the registry.

Therefore (as has previously been said) there did exist a Bill of Sale at the time in order for you to have updated the Registry all those years ago; that having been done, the purpose of the Bill of Sale is exhausted and the (then) new entry in the REgistry is the new starting point.

Again, as others have said, what has happened since then could either be nothing (ie your case nothing has changed) or all sorts of changes of ownership that haven't been registered. How is that addressed?

Firstly you can prove your identity and that you are the person named in the Registry and you have possession of the Registered Yacht - pretty good starting point.

However, it is dealt with contractually by the warranty given in any (standard) contract for the sale of the yacht whereby the Vendor warrants the following as an example
Upon receipt of the balance of the purchase price, the Vendor shall
(a) execute a Bill of Sale in favour of the Purchaser or his nominee showing the vessel to be free from encumbrances and such other title documents as are set out in the schedule to this Agreement, together with any other documents appertaining to the vessel.
(b) Execute any necessary delivery order or authority enabling the Purchaser to take immediate possession of the vessel.
(c) By delivery of documents in (a) and (b) of this Clause, the Vendor shall be deemed to covenant that he has the power to transfer property in the vessel and that the same is free from encumbrances and liability for duties, taxes, debts, liens and the like on the said vessel except such encumbrances, duties, taxes, debts, liens and the like as are the responsibility of the Purchaser under Clause 4 and 8 hereof.

Furthermore, this is supported by the Bill of Sale itself since that is the transfer of the shares in the vessel; you can only transfer what you own.

I suggest that since you are the person named on the registry, are in possession of the boat and can prove continuous possession for years, that your possession of the yacht is not challenged (and you have advertised openly), that you will give the necessary contractual warranty and sign a Bill of Sale and that you are not doing a runner and have assets (I presume !) , then you are a very very good bet to buy from.

Possession of the Bill of Sale adds nothing to the Registry entry - even the person selling to you all those years ago will be named on the Registry and can be traced as effectively as if the BofS existed. However, the Registry entry does add something over the mere possession of the BofS since it proves that the BofS existed at that point in time and was submitted to the Registry (and therefore is not a recent invention)

I counsel against the manufacture of documents - I cannot imagine a Rival owner would need such advice anyway!. However, if there is a perceived problem (which it why others suggest this course) then someone will investigate the documents now or later. I was going to say that the consequences cannot be readily predicted - actually they can ! Far better if there is any degree of risk for the new owner to acknowledge and accept that slight risk gap; I am sure it will not be a problem at all.

I hope this helps,

Kind regards

Andrew

 

[KellysEye]

>As others have pointed out, the certificate does not show owns the boat. It shows who owned the boat at one time in the past.

That depends if the OP renewed it when he bought the boat, if he did it will show him as the owner if not you are right. We renewed for the reasons of ownership and mortgage information and the new owner of our boat has done the same. You also have to renew it occasionally.

 

[Kukri]

In my view, the entry in the registry book is the new starting point and the boat's ownership history prior to that point does not have to be evidenced outside of the registry document - that is the purpose of the registry.

Therefore (as has previously been said) there did exist a Bill of Sale at the time in order for you to have updated the Registry all those years ago; that having been done, the purpose of the Bill of Sale is exhausted and the (then) new entry in the REgistry is the new starting point.

Again, as others have said, what has happened since then could either be nothing (ie your case nothing has changed) or all sorts of changes of ownership that haven't been registered. How is that addressed?

Firstly you can prove your identity and that you are the person named in the Registry and you have possession of the Registered Yacht - pretty good starting point.

However, it is dealt with contractually by the warranty given in any (standard) contract for the sale of the yacht whereby the Vendor warrants the following as an example
Upon receipt of the balance of the purchase price, the Vendor shall
(a) execute a Bill of Sale in favour of the Purchaser or his nominee showing the vessel to be free from encumbrances and such other title documents as are set out in the schedule to this Agreement, together with any other documents appertaining to the vessel.
(b) Execute any necessary delivery order or authority enabling the Purchaser to take immediate possession of the vessel.
(c) By delivery of documents in (a) and (b) of this Clause, the Vendor shall be deemed to covenant that he has the power to transfer property in the vessel and that the same is free from encumbrances and liability for duties, taxes, debts, liens and the like on the said vessel except such encumbrances, duties, taxes, debts, liens and the like as are the responsibility of the Purchaser under Clause 4 and 8 hereof.

Furthermore, this is supported by the Bill of Sale itself since that is the transfer of the shares in the vessel; you can only transfer what you own.

I suggest that since you are the person named on the registry, are in possession of the boat and can prove continuous possession for years, that your possession of the yacht is not challenged (and you have advertised openly), that you will give the necessary contractual warranty and sign a Bill of Sale and that you are not doing a runner and have assets (I presume !) , then you are a very very good bet to buy from.

Possession of the Bill of Sale adds nothing to the Registry entry - even the person selling to you all those years ago will be named on the Registry and can be traced as effectively as if the BofS existed. However, the Registry entry does add something over the mere possession of the BofS since it proves that the BofS existed at that point in time and was submitted to the Registry (and therefore is not a recent invention)

I counsel against the manufacture of documents - I cannot imagine a Rival owner would need such advice anyway!. However, if there is a perceived problem (which it why others suggest this course) then someone will investigate the documents now or later. I was going to say that the consequences cannot be readily predicted - actually they can ! Far better if there is any degree of risk for the new owner to acknowledge and accept that slight risk gap; I am sure it will not be a problem at all.

I hope this helps,

Kind regards

Andrew

Absolutely right - including the last paragraph.

 

[JumbleDuck]

>As others have pointed out, the certificate does not show owns the boat. It shows who owned the boat at one time in the past.

That depends if the OP renewed it when he bought the boat, if he did it will show him as the owner ...

... on the day it was issued, which is "one time in the past".

 

[Tranona]

... on the day it was issued, which is "one time in the past".

And it is not a register of ownership but of title which are two different things, although often they are with the same person.

 

[prv]

>As others have pointed out, the certificate does not show owns the boat. It shows who owned the boat at one time in the past.

That depends if the OP renewed it when he bought the boat, if he did it will show him as the owner if not you are right.

He's right either way - even if the OP renewed the registration, the certificate doesn't disappear in a puff of smoke if he subsequently lets the registration lapse and then sells the boat. All it proves is that he owned the boat at the time the certificate was printed.

Pete

 

[Kukri]

He's right either way - even if the OP renewed the registration, the certificate doesn't disappear in a puff of smoke if he subsequently lets the registration lapse and then sells the boat. All it proves is that he owned the boat at the time the certificate was printed.

Pete

Which is where the Transcript of Register comes in.

 

[Kukri]

And it is not a register of ownership but of title which are two different things, although often they are with the same person.

True, O King, if the vessel is owned by a trust.

We are now getting really obscure!

As it happens I do run some British ships which are owned by trusts - the title is held by a bare trustee which is a limited company and appears as the "Owner" on the Certificate of Registry.

 

[KellysEye]

>And it is not a register of ownership but of title which are two different things, although often they are with the same person.

I think you haven't seen a Part One Certificate because if you look at the back it says 'Name and address of owner(s)' and the share, ours was 64 'jointly with' our names and addresses.

 

[ChrisE]

Seems a lot of fuss fer yer auld tub. Para told me to say that.

Well he would, wouldn't he. He's deflecting from own HoS.

 

[Tranona]

True, O King, if the vessel is owned by a trust.

We are now getting really obscure!

As it happens I do run some British ships which are owned by trusts - the title is held by a bare trustee which is a limited company and appears as the "Owner" on the Certificate of Registry.

There are other situations such as owned by a syndicate but registered in the name of one person and ownership covered by a separate agreement. Or as in the case of my boat where the title was with a Greek management company but my ownership was covered by a separate agreement.When the contract finished title was transferred to me through a BofS and removed from. The Greek register.

 

[prv]

There are other situations such as owned by a syndicate but registered in the name of one person and ownership covered by a separate agreement. Or as in the case of my boat where the title was with a Greek management company but my ownership was covered by a separate agreement.When the contract finished title was transferred to me through a BofS and removed from. The Greek register.

What's the difference between title and ownership?

(Genuine question, this isn't a distinction I've come across before)

Pete

 

[Heckler]

Quite. I fail to see how an old bit of paper can be seen as proof of ownership. If you still had the Bill of Sale what would that show? Just that you bought it at that moment. For all a purchaser or lender knows you have sold it since or sold shares in it. Like a vehicle registration document only shows you are the keeper, a Bill of sale only shows how things once were.
Computers are wonderful things these days. You can make-up what you want.

Another plus one, we bend ourselves out of shape over bits of paper that quite frankly dont mean a thing!
Stu

 

[Tranona]

Probably easier to Google the definition of the terms rather than have me make a hash of trying to explain. Not a copy out but needs thinking about!

 

[Poecheng]

What's the difference between title and ownership?

(Genuine question, this isn't a distinction I've come across before)

Pete

Dear Pete,

Title is the lawyer's word for ownership or rather the right of ownership. So you have "title deeds" and you have "title" to your property; by having title to your property you have the right of ownership. Another identical usage is referable to my earlier post when I said that when signing the Bill of Sale, you cannot transfer what you do not own; a lawyer might express if formally as "you cannot transfer that for which you do not have title"

Whilst it denotes right of ownership, it is not in our law an exclusive concept by which I mean that is not the be all and end all that can fend off all claims by others - claims by others of ownership.

Clear example is your house in which Mr PRV is the person named on the title deeds but Mrs PRV (or Mr PRV2 if appropriate) would in many circumstances be regarded as a joint owner. You could not just wave the title deeds (naming only you) in front of Mrs PRV and tell her she owns nothing. Other examples of ownership are drawn from others' posts and include the title holder holding the property on trust for others or as a nominee.

So whilst "title" is ownership it also denotes "legal ownership" in the sense that they are the official owners. However, beneath this there may be all sorts of "beneficial owners" - those who truly have a degree of ownership but who are not legal owners. The law in England protects such persons. Another example might be the bank account for the little PVRs - it would be in your name but as trustee for the little PVRs

So "ownership" might be thought to be a wider concept than mere title; it reflects the real/true ownership which is exercised (officially) through the title holder.

Hope this helps

Andrew