Off to the Netherlands we go...

[MagicalArmchair]

On this thread you gave some epic advice on where else our family of four (Thomas 13, Sophie 10, Matthew 7 and Issy 4) on Mirage, our lovely Bavaria 40, could go cruising after five years of going backwards and forwards from her home base in Chatham on the Medway to the delights of the East Coast, usually starting in the Orwell.

She is well equipped with Radar, an AIS transponder and a very solid engine that has never let us down when we needed it.

Thread 'Cruising ground recommendations'

24 Sep 2024

We are planning our next years cruising with our four kids (who will be 3, 7, 10 and 13 next summer) on our Bavaria 40. We do love the East Coast, with a single "passage" of ten hours across the Thames from her home in the Medway to the Orwell, where all the passages within the holiday itself are kid friendly. This year we did SYH, Woodbridge (with a draft of 2 meters ), Ramsholt, Stone Point beach, Titchsmarsh, and then Woolverstone, with still plenty of options of different places we could have visited.

What other crusing grounds, within a reasonable holiday time range, would you...

• MagicalArmchair
• Replies: 62
• Forum: Practical Boat Owner's Reader to Reader

The route will look something like this (a conservative 5 knot average speed assumed):

• Chatham > Ramsgate - 9 hours
• Ramsgate > Nieuwpoort - 11 hours (anyone know if the yacht club is better on the West bank vs the marina on the East bank? The marina looks like it has better facilities)
• Nieuwpoort > Breskens - 8 hours - we may pop over to Middleburg, but alas have no holding tank!
• Breskens > Swale > 22 hours (the overnight return, leaving at 14:00 Breskens, crossing the shipping lanes at night, arriving at anchor on the Swale the next morning)

Our usual East Coast adventures consist of around 35 hours of sailing over the two weeks. 10 hours each way across the Thames (if the weather is howling from the West, we do often leave the boat, drive home, and then the eldest and me deliver her back over a weekend), and then probably another 15 hours floating around the East Coast rivers. This means our trip to the continent will only add around 15 more hours of actual sailing - however, that sailing will be in more exposed waters (although the Thames can get quite nasty).

We'll not leave in anything over a force 4, and then only with it in a quarter from the West when travelling East, and then the same when travelling back West on the return leg, as we are anxious to not give the crew too much of grim and sporty time. We'd start looking for our return window at the start of week two, giving a full seven days to find the right conditions to return.

Some questions.

• Has anyone done this route recently with kids? Are they decent kid destinations? The Beach's look good!
• Any advice in general on that route? Or cross channel with kids?
• If the conditions are not good for coming back, sending the younger ones back on the Eurostar would be an option? The joys of two weeks of annual leave! Anyone done this?

I've sailed all over as crew (Scotland, Channel Islands, France, Holland etc), and owned a boat for the last 15 years (every year visiting the East Coast), but this will be our first cross channel adventure flying the Q flag as for 13 of those 15 years we've had really very tiny children, so this trip comes with a significant dollop of anxiety that I might put off the family for good if I get it wrong. They do love the East Coast and our years sailing - although it does feel time to step out into the unknown (for us!), and when I have offered them to go by ferry or train, they all do want to be part of that adventure. I've done the South Coast also so many times over the years also - buying and sailing both boats back from there and sailing in the RTI race a couple of times.

 

[Plum]

Sorry to be pedantic but in the interest of good international relations The Netherlands officially stopped using "Holland" as a reference to the entire country in January 2020. The Dutch government decided to rebrand and promote the country using its official name, the Netherlands, in all international contexts.

You will find that all Netherlands harbours/marinas/yatchclubs have good shoreside facilities so it is possible to survive without a holding tank.

In Nieuwpoort the marina in the East side is more convenient for the Border Police office to get your passports stamped if this is your first port of entry to the EU, the West side is closer to the town.

 

[MagicalArmchair]

Thanks Plum, I had no idea, I could have arrived and caused an international incident straight off the pontoon . Thank you for the tips, so we could head into the canals to Middleburg if we were feeling bold and get away with no holding tank. That is useful information.

We are happier being closer to nature I think rather than closer to town - and there is bike hire too, so we will use that.

P.s. I've edited the post title for completeness!

 

[vyv_cox]

If you enter the canals at Vlissingen, highly recommended for Middelburg and Veerse Meer, be aware that the tide whistles past the entrance at the appropriate states of the tide. Your ferry gliding skills will be tested!

 

[Dockhead]

Sorry to be pedantic but in the interest of good international relations The Netherlands officially stopped using "Holland" as a reference to the entire country in January 2020. The Dutch government decided to rebrand and promote the country using its official name, the Netherlands, in all international contexts. . .

My Dutch friends all say "Holland" when referring to their motherland, in both English and Dutch. "Nederland" is the official name of the country in Dutch, but my impression is that this is less used than "Holland".

At international football matches, Dutch people say "Hup Holland, hup!"

Both "Holland" and "Nederland" refer to different parts of the country; so both examples of synecdoche. "Holland" means "woodland" and "Nederland" means nether land -- low land.

Despite my inherently pedantic tendencies, I'm not sure I would be so pedantic about this. No Dutch person will ever raise the slightest eyebrow if you refer to their country as Holland.

 

[Concerto]

Mark, you have not included Ostend. The North Sea Yacht Club basin and Mercator Basin are both very convenient to get to the sandy beach. Plenty of tourist shops and much more including excellent stall selling fish, shrimps and frite close by.

 

[SvenH]

@ Dockhead: Just as a Scotsman does not mind being mentioned as living in Engeland?

 

[johnalison]

@ Dockhead: Just as a Scotsman does not mind being mentioned as living in Engeland?

I don’t think so. Scotland is a country and not part of England, whereas Holland is something like a province, and part of the Netherlands. The confusion is so long established that, as Dockhead says, little offence will usually be taken.

‘The Netherlands’ is a clumsy title to say, or for me to type, and ‘Holland’ is much easier. I doubt if many of us say or write ‘Great Britain’ routinely, and are more likely to approximate with ‘Britain’ or ‘The UK’.

 

[MK101]

The marina on the east bank in Nieuwpoort (VYH) is indeed much more convenient for passports etc. And they have bicycles to rent at a good price for when you want to go to town (Brasserie Nieuwpoort in Marktplein is highly recommended).

We used the bikes to cycle down the river Ijzer exploring some of the WW1 sites yesterday.

We’ve not been to Breskens, so I can’t comment but Cadzand is worth considering - very much a holiday place, so kids will likely enjoy.

As per previous comments, I don’t think not having a holding tank should deter you from visiting NL.

 

[Daydream believer]

Blankenburg or Ostend is more child friendly than Nieuport & one can do Blankenburg from Ramsgate easily in 11 hours Ostend in 10 if you work the tides I would suggest Blankenburgh first
These 2 ports make the trip to Breskens easy with the right tides- which can be strong & important to time corectly & would take 4.5 hours
Breskens is not really a children place so miss it & go to Flushing & give the kids some fun in the lock & canal to Middleburgh That is why I suggest Blankenburgh first
Hire some bikes (electric or tandem if the kids struggle) & pedal to Verre. Gives more time in Verre & the ride back along the canal is fun. Climb the tower for a view of the area is a must. Snacks beers & ice creams then back to Middleburgh
Then back to Ostend to log out of schengan & sail home
If stuck in Ostend hire bikes & do the Atlantic wall at Raversdyke or the park or both The tram does go past the atlantic wall & the kids might like the tram. If you missed Blankenburg you could go there by tram. It only takes 30 mins from Ostend
Have a great holiday

 

[johnalison]

The best fun our children had in the region was on the islands in the Versemeer, where they could mess around to their hearts’ content, pootle around in the dinghy or swim.

 

[vyv_cox]

The best fun our children had in the region was on the islands in the Versemeer, where they could mess around to their hearts’ content, pootle around in the dinghy or swim.

When we lived close by there were pontoons on the islands for berthing, all free. That was 20+ years ago so things may have changed but they were very welcome then.

 

[Daydream believer]

When we lived close by there were pontoons on the islands for berthing, all free. That was 20+ years ago so things may have changed but they were very welcome then.

Apparently locals parked their boats on them to avoid berthing fees in marinas so the number of pontoons was greatly reduced.
cannot say I think they are a very good stopping place these days. Depths seem much reduced over the years & maintenance has been limited. But others may have found some OK

 

[SvenH]

@ johnelison: Most non UK people probably do not know that fact, just as many do not know that Holland is not a country.

 

[Dockhead]

@ johnelison: Most non UK people probably do not know that fact, just as many do not know that Holland is not a country.

Are you from Holland? Or if you prefer, the Netherlands?

If so, then of course good manners require us to refer to your country the way you prefer, at least in your presence.

I have Turkish friends, and some of them recently asked me to refer to what we always called Turkey, as Türkiye. This is apparently a thing now among some Turks. Fortunately I speak German and have a German keyboard on my computer, so at least I have access to the ü.

I don't refer to Munich as München (even if I did when I lived there), nor do I call Germany Deutschland, when I'm speaking English. We do have our own names for foreign countries and cities in our own language. Germany for the Danes is "Tuskland", and for the Finns "Saksa". In Italy, Munich is called "Monaco".

Nevertheless, if my friends want me to say and write "Türkiye", then that's up to them, so I switch keyboards and comply.

 

[johnalison]

Apparently locals parked their boats on them to avoid berthing fees in marinas so the number of pontoons was greatly reduced.
cannot say I think they are a very good stopping place these days. Depths seem much reduced over the years & maintenance has been limited. But others may have found some OK

I believe that you now have to purchase a ticket to stay on the islands and I have an idea that this was done in Veere. I don’t know for sure but for all I know it may be something you do you line these days. It shouldn’t put you off though.

 

[johnalison]

Are you from Holland? Or if you prefer, the Netherlands?

If so, then of course good manners require us to refer to your country the way you prefer, at least in your presence.

I have Turkish friends, and some of them recently asked me to refer to what we always called Turkey, as Türkiye. This is apparently a thing now among some Turks. Fortunately I speak German and have a German keyboard on my computer, so at least I have access to the ü.

I don't refer to Munich as München (even if I did when I lived there), nor do I call Germany Deutschland, when I'm speaking English. We do have our own names for foreign countries and cities in our own language. Germany for the Danes is "Tuskland", and for the Finns "Saksa". In Italy, Munich is called "Monaco".

Nevertheless, if my friends want me to say and write "Türkiye", then that's up to them, so I switch keyboards and comply.

Taking offence seems to be a preoccupation with a whole generation today. I really fail to see that names matter, providing they are understood, and clearly not insulting. I am already suffering from enough stress from having to remember Mum-buy, Bay-Jing and Sree-Lanker that I don’t feel that I need to be badgered about yet another one. I will change my mind when all these others call England ‘England’. It is not that I care re England, Britain or the United Kingdom, in fact I find all the foreign versions both slightly weird and rather charming.

 

[Seven Spades]

I think a compromise name is required how about Dutchland.

 

[WFA]

I'm surprised by the fuss over a name that is included in the two most populated Dutch Provinces of North and South Holland - which combined border and include most of Netherlands's waterways.
A few practical notes :
Our passports are required to be stamped on first entry and last departure when visiting the Schengen area of the EU. My home port is in NE Essex so my experience only covers Belgium and the Netherlands. For convenience my favored Schengen entry/exit port is Zeebrugge and I cannot speak highly enough of the Customs/Immigration service provided there. This year I learned that unfortunately the Belgium and Netherlands Immigration systems do not blend which explains why we would often be visited by Dutch officials soon after berthing in Vlissinghen or Middelburg. Once the Crew list and passport stamps have been check everyone is happy - again the Dutch officials are really helpful and pleasant. UK and Belgium notifications are online.
If you need somewhere to "go" at night without the hassle of leaving the boat then buy a chemical loo from a caravan shop. All marinas have emptying and cleaning stations.
The only conservation area that I know of that requires a permit is Grevelingenmeer. Permits are not expensive and can be bought for periods from one day up to one year; best done at the Bruinisse HM office which is just inside the entrance of the first big marina you come to when you have cleared Gravelinghemsluice.
When the weather is not enticing you to go sailing then there are usually plenty of local attractions plus the public transport networks are excellent. I believe all public transport modes are tap and go with a credit /debit card and there is always a local on hand who will speak English and help. I use a Starling debit card (others are available) when traveling as it is one of the new breeds that is universally acceptable and cuts out all the additional conversion and charge hassles.
Finally, when planning the big passages, monitor the weather forecasts and take advantage of weather and tide windows that offer the most comfortable passage for your crew.
Enjoy!

 

[MagicalArmchair]

If you enter the canals at Vlissingen, highly recommended for Middelburg and Veerse Meer, be aware that the tide whistles past the entrance at the appropriate states of the tide. Your ferry gliding skills will be tested!

Thank you @vyv_cox, if we are brave and make it that far east my ferry gliding skills are pretty good, as the spring tides whistle past the entrance to Chatham marina and only lets go as you enter the lock gates (as Concerto will attest to). Alarmed visiting crew members are often concerned and dumbfounded as to why we are approaching the lock sideways, pointing in the wrong direction . What is the best tide state to enter?

Mark, you have not included Ostend. The North Sea Yacht Club basin and Mercator Basin are both very convenient to get to the sandy beach. Plenty of tourist shops and much more including excellent stall selling fish, shrimps and frite close by.

Hey Roger! We are missing you in Chatham! I hope your passage went well. Ostend looks more built up and with less nature than Nieuwport? I hope @Concerto is well, she was looking very smart before you left us.

The marina on the east bank in Nieuwpoort (VYH) is indeed much more convenient for passports etc. And they have bicycles to rent at a good price for when you want to go to town (Brasserie Nieuwpoort in Marktplein is highly recommended).

We used the bikes to cycle down the river Ijzer exploring some of the WW1 sites yesterday.

We’ve not been to Breskens, so I can’t comment but Cadzand is worth considering - very much a holiday place, so kids will likely enjoy.

As per previous comments, I don’t think not having a holding tank should deter you from visiting NL.

Thanks @MK101 , I haven't looked at Cadzand - the harbour looks like it could get quite a swell in there? I prefer the look of that to Breskens I think!

I believe that you now have to purchase a ticket to stay on the islands and I have an idea that this was done in Veere. I don’t know for sure but for all I know it may be something you do you line these days. It shouldn’t put you off though.

Thank you @johnalison, I guess staying on the islands a holding tank would be beneficial? I guess not being tidal, is our 2m draft a problem there? I feel with this first adventure for us we might not be brave enough to venture in past Middleburg to the Veere.

I'm surprised by the fuss over a name that is included in the two most populated Dutch Provinces of North and South Holland - which combined border and include most of Netherlands's waterways.
A few practical notes :
Our passports are required to be stamped on first entry and last departure when visiting the Schengen area of the EU. My home port is in NE Essex so my experience only covers Belgium and the Netherlands. For convenience my favored Schengen entry/exit port is Zeebrugge and I cannot speak highly enough of the Customs/Immigration service provided there. This year I learned that unfortunately the Belgium and Netherlands Immigration systems do not blend which explains why we would often be visited by Dutch officials soon after berthing in Vlissinghen or Middelburg. Once the Crew list and passport stamps have been check everyone is happy - again the Dutch officials are really helpful and pleasant. UK and Belgium notifications are online.
If you need somewhere to "go" at night without the hassle of leaving the boat then buy a chemical loo from a caravan shop. All marinas have emptying and cleaning stations.
The only conservation area that I know of that requires a permit is Grevelingenmeer. Permits are not expensive and can be bought for periods from one day up to one year; best done at the Bruinisse HM office which is just inside the entrance of the first big marina you come to when you have cleared Gravelinghemsluice.
When the weather is not enticing you to go sailing then there are usually plenty of local attractions plus the public transport networks are excellent. I believe all public transport modes are tap and go with a credit /debit card and there is always a local on hand who will speak English and help. I use a Starling debit card (others are available) when traveling as it is one of the new breeds that is universally acceptable and cuts out all the additional conversion and charge hassles.
Finally, when planning the big passages, monitor the weather forecasts and take advantage of weather and tide windows that offer the most comfortable passage for your crew.
Enjoy!

Thanks for the advice @WFA Good idea re the Chemical loo, and yes, we are keeping a keen eye on weather windows on PredictWind. Vlissinghen looks amazing, VOF De Aanlegsteiger looks like a cracking and easy to get into. We could reach Middleburg from that basin too.

Thanks for all the advice. Once we have done this crossing the once (a bit like the first time we crossed the Deben bar!) with the four kids, it'll become second nature and all (most?) of the anxiety will be removed (so long as we get the weather windows right ). Taking the young kids along will get them a sense of achievement too, so I am not keen sending them via ferry or plane (a decision I may live to regret ).