destiny
New member
Any of you learned gents or ladies have anything to report on the sea-keeping abilities of an Oceanis 44CC? Any replies/information or pointers to yacht tests would be much appreciated.
Oceanis 44CC sea-keeping?
- Thread starter destiny
- Start date
doris
Well-known member
Haven't a clue how they sail but watched one out on the Solent last autumn and it looked terrific!
Bergman
New member
I don't know anything about the 44cc but it may be food for thought if you read the MAIB investigation report on the Oceanis 390 which capsized in Biscay.
http://www.maib.gov.uk/sites/maib/cms_resources/dft_masafety_030920.pdf
http://www.maib.gov.uk/sites/maib/cms_resources/dft_masafety_030920.pdf
Stingo
Well-known member
You obviously haven't read it yourself because it was the skippers fault entirely.
Bet you're the type that blames your tools for bad workmanship.
Bet you're the type that blames your tools for bad workmanship.
Bergman
New member
The original post asked for information about the sea-keeping abilities of the Oceanis 44cc.
As I said in my post I have no personal experience of (or axe to grind about) the Beneteau, I've never been on one.
I had read the MAIB report and I knew there was information there about the performance of the 390 in heavy weather and I believed it would be of interest to the original poster.
I have included the following quotes which I think clearly demonstrate that not only have I read the report but that it will be of great interest to anyone contemplating taking a similar boat into a position where heavy weather is a possiblity.
Not I would suggest an unreasonable position.
"It is not a suitable craft for crossing oceans in bad weather"
"The limitations of this type of light displacement craft are, however, well known to experienced blue water sailors"
"They were told to remain clipped on in the confident expectation that the yacht would right itself almost immediately. Such confidence was misplaced"
"The inquiry concludes that any yacht is vulnerable in high sea states but such vulnerability is more pronounced in a high volume, light displacement craft such as a Beneteau Oceanis 390"
"The Oceanis 390 is a safe, comfortable, yacht suitable for pleasure sailing and charter work. Her lightweight design, however, together with her stability characteristics, introduce a high risk factor in the type of extreme sea-state conditions encountered by Ocean Madam. The yacht is not designed for crossing oceans in bad weather"
It may be, judging from your post that you disagree with the above statements, but considering their source, it would seem sensible to at least take them seriously.
I really do not understand your hostile response.
As I said in my post I have no personal experience of (or axe to grind about) the Beneteau, I've never been on one.
I had read the MAIB report and I knew there was information there about the performance of the 390 in heavy weather and I believed it would be of interest to the original poster.
I have included the following quotes which I think clearly demonstrate that not only have I read the report but that it will be of great interest to anyone contemplating taking a similar boat into a position where heavy weather is a possiblity.
Not I would suggest an unreasonable position.
"It is not a suitable craft for crossing oceans in bad weather"
"The limitations of this type of light displacement craft are, however, well known to experienced blue water sailors"
"They were told to remain clipped on in the confident expectation that the yacht would right itself almost immediately. Such confidence was misplaced"
"The inquiry concludes that any yacht is vulnerable in high sea states but such vulnerability is more pronounced in a high volume, light displacement craft such as a Beneteau Oceanis 390"
"The Oceanis 390 is a safe, comfortable, yacht suitable for pleasure sailing and charter work. Her lightweight design, however, together with her stability characteristics, introduce a high risk factor in the type of extreme sea-state conditions encountered by Ocean Madam. The yacht is not designed for crossing oceans in bad weather"
It may be, judging from your post that you disagree with the above statements, but considering their source, it would seem sensible to at least take them seriously.
I really do not understand your hostile response.
kidnapped
New member
I find your outburst quite extraordinary ..... everything you say about the Beneteau 390 cannot be argued with .... but I seem to have read that the boat in question is a Beneteau 44cc, so your comments are clearly wrong. Some things mentioned in your contribution may, or may not apply, I don't know for sure. However things move on and the 44cc is a much newer design than the 390 .... they might have learnt something.
I do however subscribe to the view that heavier displacement, although maybe not as exciting, or cheap, is generally the better route to go if sailing offshore.
I do however subscribe to the view that heavier displacement, although maybe not as exciting, or cheap, is generally the better route to go if sailing offshore.
Stingo
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
"It is not a suitable craft for crossing oceans in bad weather"
[/ QUOTE ]
What craft is?
[ QUOTE ]
"They were told to remain clipped on in the confident expectation that the yacht would right itself almost immediately. Such confidence was misplaced"
[/ QUOTE ]
Would have helped if the washboards had been in place and the 390 hadn't filled with water - skippers fault that the washboards were not in place.
[ QUOTE ]
I really do not understand your hostile response.
[/ QUOTE ]
I own a 390 and have crossed the Atlantic in her and I am getting really pissed off with people that slag the 390 off when that incident would have happened no matter what type of boat that particular delivery skipper was in. He left in a worsening forecast, he had inexperienced crew at the helm, he insisted on tracking across the waves, he didn't put the washboards in - and the 390 gets blamed! Get a grip on what was actually the cause of the problem.
"It is not a suitable craft for crossing oceans in bad weather"
[/ QUOTE ]
What craft is?
[ QUOTE ]
"They were told to remain clipped on in the confident expectation that the yacht would right itself almost immediately. Such confidence was misplaced"
[/ QUOTE ]
Would have helped if the washboards had been in place and the 390 hadn't filled with water - skippers fault that the washboards were not in place.
[ QUOTE ]
I really do not understand your hostile response.
[/ QUOTE ]
I own a 390 and have crossed the Atlantic in her and I am getting really pissed off with people that slag the 390 off when that incident would have happened no matter what type of boat that particular delivery skipper was in. He left in a worsening forecast, he had inexperienced crew at the helm, he insisted on tracking across the waves, he didn't put the washboards in - and the 390 gets blamed! Get a grip on what was actually the cause of the problem.
Bergman
New member
Now hang on a minute
I am not slagging anything off
The quotes were from a MAIB Investigator - not from me
If you disagree - fine - take it up with the MAIB
I know the 390 isn't the 44cc but assume similar comments apply - perhaps i'm wrong, would'nt be the first time. What I cannot understand is the vituperation against me for simply pointing out a document that is in the public domain.
No boat is perfect - why is this an unnacceptable point of view when applied to a Beneteau.
As I said earlier I have never sailed a Beneteau - I do not personally have any idea whether they are good, bad or indifferent.
Similarly I make no attempt to allocate blame for the loss of life. In fairness the MAIB report points to a number of issues, including the ones you mention, and I do not seek to disagree with any of them. It is reasonable to assume that the author of such a report has sufficient expertise as to command respect for his opinions, and that is what I believed would give Destiny "food for though" - nothing more.
I am not slagging anything off
The quotes were from a MAIB Investigator - not from me
If you disagree - fine - take it up with the MAIB
I know the 390 isn't the 44cc but assume similar comments apply - perhaps i'm wrong, would'nt be the first time. What I cannot understand is the vituperation against me for simply pointing out a document that is in the public domain.
No boat is perfect - why is this an unnacceptable point of view when applied to a Beneteau.
As I said earlier I have never sailed a Beneteau - I do not personally have any idea whether they are good, bad or indifferent.
Similarly I make no attempt to allocate blame for the loss of life. In fairness the MAIB report points to a number of issues, including the ones you mention, and I do not seek to disagree with any of them. It is reasonable to assume that the author of such a report has sufficient expertise as to command respect for his opinions, and that is what I believed would give Destiny "food for though" - nothing more.
billmacfarlane
Active member
I think Stingos taken the hump because it looks like you've cherry picked bits of the report that paint a bad picture and not mentioned other mitigating circumstances that were nothing to do with the boat. It came across much as a Blairite report in reverse.
Stingo
Well-known member
Thank you. Hammers & nailheads spring to mind.
Bergman
New member
Perhaps so, but that was not my intention.
Going back to the original question it was a request for information and I pointed to the report as a source. I am sure Destiny is more than capable of making his own decisions and I did'nt seek to lead any such decisions.
The parts I quoted were an attempt to show that the report was relevant to the original question.
The comments were taken verbatim from the report and I am sure that anyone making a serious decision about trans ocean sailing would be capable of reading the whole report and making a reasoned decision based on that and other sources of information.
I was, and am, truly amazed to be on the receiveing end of such vitriol for pointing to something in a MAIB report. Had I made some subjective criticism fine, I would take what comes, but for merely pointing to what I consider a respected source of information to be subjected to this sort of thing is quite startling.
There has been no shortage of posts on here "slagging off" Beneteaus and other modern boats and if anyone cares to check back I have routinely taken no part in them. The only thing I "slag off" on this board is the government and they thoroughly deserve it. I have never slagged off any type of boat. They are all different, none are perfect and its everyones choice which they choose to spend their money on - none of my business to criticise their choice - so I don't.
And I think thats my last word on this.
Going back to the original question it was a request for information and I pointed to the report as a source. I am sure Destiny is more than capable of making his own decisions and I did'nt seek to lead any such decisions.
The parts I quoted were an attempt to show that the report was relevant to the original question.
The comments were taken verbatim from the report and I am sure that anyone making a serious decision about trans ocean sailing would be capable of reading the whole report and making a reasoned decision based on that and other sources of information.
I was, and am, truly amazed to be on the receiveing end of such vitriol for pointing to something in a MAIB report. Had I made some subjective criticism fine, I would take what comes, but for merely pointing to what I consider a respected source of information to be subjected to this sort of thing is quite startling.
There has been no shortage of posts on here "slagging off" Beneteaus and other modern boats and if anyone cares to check back I have routinely taken no part in them. The only thing I "slag off" on this board is the government and they thoroughly deserve it. I have never slagged off any type of boat. They are all different, none are perfect and its everyones choice which they choose to spend their money on - none of my business to criticise their choice - so I don't.
And I think thats my last word on this.
destiny
New member
Well guys,
Interesting comments! Had absolutely nothing to do with my original question, as the 44CC is a 12 ton boat and 10 years younger, so she'd obviously handle differently.
I was interested in knowing if she would tend to slam as many of her "lighter" sisters may do in a short(ish) moderate sea - as in the Med. Of course, the amount of "slamming" dependes on whose at the helm, but unless one opt's for hand steerage, then "george" doesn't care...
Yes, I read the report with interest - difficult to say who's at fault, but I don't trust overconfident, loud mouths who shrug off a F9 forecast in the Biscay (near a shelf!!!). Hell, I wouldn't have set off in a 25m yacht if I didn't have to - and did they really have to?
Interesting comments! Had absolutely nothing to do with my original question, as the 44CC is a 12 ton boat and 10 years younger, so she'd obviously handle differently.
I was interested in knowing if she would tend to slam as many of her "lighter" sisters may do in a short(ish) moderate sea - as in the Med. Of course, the amount of "slamming" dependes on whose at the helm, but unless one opt's for hand steerage, then "george" doesn't care...
Yes, I read the report with interest - difficult to say who's at fault, but I don't trust overconfident, loud mouths who shrug off a F9 forecast in the Biscay (near a shelf!!!). Hell, I wouldn't have set off in a 25m yacht if I didn't have to - and did they really have to?
gettingready
New member
Well as a new owner of a an Oceanis 44CC I was intrigued by this post to see if I could learn anything useful about my new craft. I didn't. What I do know is that so far my new boat (actually 10 years old but new to me) has behaved excellently in the conditions that I have found in several longish cruises (Kilrush to Poole and Poole to La Rochelle and back). Admittedly the wind never went above 35 kts and the max sea was 3m so I didn't experience severe conditions. Coming from a lightweight Feeling 346 the Oceanis 44CC feels far more sea-kindly and the extra displacement (4t compared with 12t) is always more comfortable. I have crossed the Atlantic in a Sigma 41 and from that experience I would have chosen the Oceanis 44CC as a better craft for the trip I experienced.
If anyone wants more details of the Oceanis 44CC and my experiences with her I would be happy to comment further.
If anyone wants more details of the Oceanis 44CC and my experiences with her I would be happy to comment further.
tallyho
New member
The sea keeping abilities of the 44cc are relatively good, i do not own a 44cc but i have sailed on them reguarly in all conditions and never had any problems, they are relatively quick for her size and is nice and stable in a rough sea.
Sailfree
Well-known member
It would be helpful if you could indicate whether you are contemplating blue water sailing or coastal cruising as the sea keeping abilities you seek would be different.
Find out the AVS (angle of vanishing stability) from Beneteau or the STIX number if available. Ballast ratio can also be useful.
AWB's tend to be about 120 deg AVS. I had hoped there would be a trend to increase these to 130-140 deg but the seem to hover about 120 and the quality swedish boats seem to be reducing their AVS to 125 etc as they get lighter in build.
Traditional long keel blue water boats can be up in the 150-160 deg but while they survive most weathers they can be a wet boat with low freeboard.
An exception to the above is the Ovni aluminium lifting keel type of boat that is a blue water boat but has an AVS of about 105 deg. It seems the technique is to make sure you have sea room in a storn and lift the keel like a dinghy so that you don't trip over it.
Most AWB's are great value for money and sail reasonably well. I do not personally know the 44CC but mosts AWB's from 40' up have done the ARC and while the ARC does select its weather window but they still get some storms!
I mention the above as a number of people are prejudiced against AWB's and will only have a boat that is comfortable in a storm irrelevant that most of us only sail distances that the weather window can be predicted with a fair degree of accuracy.
Posted the above before reading your last post and note you have already extensively sailed her. Please tell us more about your experiences as its only by people like you, Stingo and Robin and a few others that a fairer picture of AWB's is presented.
When Stingo first posted about sailing the Atlantic in a beneteau a number suggested he should be committed to a mental home.
Out of curiousity do you feel confident that you could beat off a lee shore I appreciate your comments must be limited by the F7 you have sailed in but I for one would not choose to set sail in a F7!
Find out the AVS (angle of vanishing stability) from Beneteau or the STIX number if available. Ballast ratio can also be useful.
AWB's tend to be about 120 deg AVS. I had hoped there would be a trend to increase these to 130-140 deg but the seem to hover about 120 and the quality swedish boats seem to be reducing their AVS to 125 etc as they get lighter in build.
Traditional long keel blue water boats can be up in the 150-160 deg but while they survive most weathers they can be a wet boat with low freeboard.
An exception to the above is the Ovni aluminium lifting keel type of boat that is a blue water boat but has an AVS of about 105 deg. It seems the technique is to make sure you have sea room in a storn and lift the keel like a dinghy so that you don't trip over it.
Most AWB's are great value for money and sail reasonably well. I do not personally know the 44CC but mosts AWB's from 40' up have done the ARC and while the ARC does select its weather window but they still get some storms!
I mention the above as a number of people are prejudiced against AWB's and will only have a boat that is comfortable in a storm irrelevant that most of us only sail distances that the weather window can be predicted with a fair degree of accuracy.
Posted the above before reading your last post and note you have already extensively sailed her. Please tell us more about your experiences as its only by people like you, Stingo and Robin and a few others that a fairer picture of AWB's is presented.
When Stingo first posted about sailing the Atlantic in a beneteau a number suggested he should be committed to a mental home.
Out of curiousity do you feel confident that you could beat off a lee shore I appreciate your comments must be limited by the F7 you have sailed in but I for one would not choose to set sail in a F7!
Richard10002
Well-known member
I havent sailed a Beneteau 44cc, but considered them seriously before concentrating on a Moody 44.
Unlike most AWBs, the 44cc seems to be a much more solid and heavier boat, so possibly comparable to the Moodys and HRs etc...
Unlike most AWBs, the 44cc seems to be a much more solid and heavier boat, so possibly comparable to the Moodys and HRs etc...
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Blast from the past, ladies and gentz.
Original question is 23 months old.
Original question is 23 months old.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
We were looking at a 42 CC. One of the things I noticed was that the forefoot was deeply immersed, and not flat like some of the other estuary cruisers. the 44CC is a similar desing, so I think she woudl not have a tendancy to slam.
Take a look at the fore sections and compare with something like the Bene 477 which is very flat and slams badly even in a slight chop.
Take a look at the fore sections and compare with something like the Bene 477 which is very flat and slams badly even in a slight chop.
