Frersfanatic
Member
In my experience of owning older boats I wouldn't consider that a failure but rather wear and tear - we are talking 35 years in the marine environment. It's pretty close to end of useful economic life in my opinion.
Northshore creditors meeting
- Thread starter Ex-SolentBoy
- Start date
In my experience of owning older boats I wouldn't consider that a failure but rather wear and tear - we are talking 35 years in the marine environment. It's pretty close to end of useful economic life in my opinion.
Seajet
...
Frersfanatic,
what engineering knowledge do you base your judgement of Southerly twin rudders on ?
The Ovni's are very respected as real sailors' boats, while Southerlys are based on comfy accomodation; if given an Ovni for a day I would fully expect to sail rings around a Southerly, and calling the latter fast shows a certain lack of experience on other boats.
If you don't trust ' centreboarders ' for stability, what's a Southerly then ?!
what engineering knowledge do you base your judgement of Southerly twin rudders on ?
The Ovni's are very respected as real sailors' boats, while Southerlys are based on comfy accomodation; if given an Ovni for a day I would fully expect to sail rings around a Southerly, and calling the latter fast shows a certain lack of experience on other boats.
If you don't trust ' centreboarders ' for stability, what's a Southerly then ?!
rogerball0
N/A
I was thinking the same; much like the GT35, once your getting in to true telephone-number pricing the product and how its sold to you (as a potential customer) needs to be second to none. Or maybe its an indication of where we are economically, i.e, nowhere near out of the woods yet despite what those idiots in Westminster will tell you. FWIW all i've been involved in the last four years (when working) is schools, affordable housing and care homes, there seems to be a real dearth of genuine private-sector building and know many small building companies that have gone to the wall despite all the propaganda observed in the media that 'we've turned a corner'.
Complete and utter BS..........................
Its a ballast "swing keel", have you not picked up a yachting magazine in the last 30 years?
Seajet
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Funnily enough I have, and owning a lift keeler with a true ballast bulb I know the difference; pray tell me the ballast ratio of a Southerly, and where it - the weight - is ?
skua
Member
The twin rudders are not tiny !
Sorry to hear Southerly seem to be in trouble again, they had a great if expensive product and a team with many very good people involved but one or two individuals who were less easy to deal with and a somewhat inconsistent attitude to Customer Service.
Sorry to hear Southerly seem to be in trouble again, they had a great if expensive product and a team with many very good people involved but one or two individuals who were less easy to deal with and a somewhat inconsistent attitude to Customer Service.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Southerly (compared to the old Northshore) became a one-trick pony. Lift keels and that's your lot. They abandoned the Vancouver and Fisher ranges, and never contemplated developing fixed keel Southerlies. So they restricted themselves to a narrow market segment of a finite size, and were stuck with a high priced product because of the lift keel engineering.
Last time they went pop all the intellectual property, moulds, machinery, land and premises were tied up outside of the boat building company. Is that the case this time around?
Strikes me if someone could buy the moulds, machinery and the rights at receiver prices and without the overheads of the rest of the group they may be able to revive one or more of the brands at more attractive prices.
Last time they went pop all the intellectual property, moulds, machinery, land and premises were tied up outside of the boat building company. Is that the case this time around?
Strikes me if someone could buy the moulds, machinery and the rights at receiver prices and without the overheads of the rest of the group they may be able to revive one or more of the brands at more attractive prices.
Seajet
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Twister Ken,
I know someone who collects grp moulds hoping ' some time the market will be right ' !
I also know property developers - sadly, scum of the earth destroyers of heritage in my book, at least the ones I know - in Southerlys' case I suspect the land and location being worth a large fortune has some relevance...
Edit;
the engineering of lift keels dosn't cost much especially on something like a Southerly, but of course requires careful intelligent design.
I'd be interested to hear how many Southerly owners maintain the keel rather than simply ignoring it as part of the furniture...
I know someone who collects grp moulds hoping ' some time the market will be right ' !
I also know property developers - sadly, scum of the earth destroyers of heritage in my book, at least the ones I know - in Southerlys' case I suspect the land and location being worth a large fortune has some relevance...
Edit;
the engineering of lift keels dosn't cost much especially on something like a Southerly, but of course requires careful intelligent design.
I'd be interested to hear how many Southerly owners maintain the keel rather than simply ignoring it as part of the furniture...
Last edited:
mrming
Well-Known Member
Frersfanatic - I don't know what numbers you are looking at, but let's compare a similar modern boat from each range.
The Ovni 395 has an SA/D of 20, meaning she will be able to continue to sail in light weather, and will require reefing in the heavy stuff.
The Southerly 38 has an SA/D of 15.8, which in practice means motor sailing in light weather.
Both boats have very similar Ballast / Displacement ratios, and both forms of lifting keel design have demonstrated seaworthiness time and time again.
Both these boat types have their fans, but you are not comparing like with like. The Southerly is a very conservative cruising boat, the Ovni is a boat for those who like to sail.
The Ovni 395 has an SA/D of 20, meaning she will be able to continue to sail in light weather, and will require reefing in the heavy stuff.
The Southerly 38 has an SA/D of 15.8, which in practice means motor sailing in light weather.
Both boats have very similar Ballast / Displacement ratios, and both forms of lifting keel design have demonstrated seaworthiness time and time again.
Both these boat types have their fans, but you are not comparing like with like. The Southerly is a very conservative cruising boat, the Ovni is a boat for those who like to sail.
AndrewfromFal
Well-Known Member
I think the fact they were building barely a handful of boats every year at the time Lester Abbot bought them would indicate that there wasn't much mileage in building non-southerlys. They did for a time offer the 46 in a fixed keel version not sure if anyone bought.....the thing I noticed was they seemed to introduce a new boat in the 45 - 49 foot size range every 18 months or so. Seems like a lot of tooling for quite a small number of boats.
I've no idea what was going on corporately, but one thing I observed more than once at Boatshows was that the Mr Abbot aside, their sales staff seemed to be a gimlet-eyed bunch of miseries and made little or no attempt to engage with people who were interested in their product, even when pretty obviously wedged up and ready to spend (this seems to be consistent with what other posters have said).
Feel sad for the guys that built the boats though, and hope they'll find other work elsewhere.
Seajet
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Considering the small number of Southerlys sold, I'd have thought it madness not to keep the Vancouver & Fishers available, to get the money in and workforce busy ?!
I for one would be a lot more attracted to a late Vancouver than a Southerly - or did they sell / give away the moulds ?
I for one would be a lot more attracted to a late Vancouver than a Southerly - or did they sell / give away the moulds ?
Frersfanatic
Member
Dear Seajet - would you mind terribly toning down the belligerence as we're all trying to have a civilised discussion here and calling into question an unkown forumite's experience is not conduicive to friendly conversation. I am happy to answer your questions if we can go forward on that basis. Thank you
AndrewfromFal
Well-Known Member
That was their previous business model, and if Abbot hadn't bought them out in the first place, the business would have disappeared a decade or more ago. Am sure there were lots of people who liked the idea of buying a new Vancouver/Fisher/Supermarine, but I imagine the gulf in price between a new or decent secondhand one meant no one took the leap....
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You really are talking a lot of nonsense - again! The Southerly has just about the highest AVS of any production cruiser and its AVS even with the keel up is higher than the Ovni. The 35RS (an older design by Rob Humphreys) for example has a ballast ratio of 46% and the newer 38 (by Stephen Jones) has a ballast ratio of 38%. Both amongst the highest of any modern production boat. The Southerly keel is part of the ballast unlike the Ovni which not only has a substantially lower ballast ratio, but the ballast is all in the shallow hull, the board is unballasted. Southerlies would get Cat A rating even with the plate up, whereas the Ovni barely scrapes in at the bottom, even with the keel down.
As to this notion of "sailor's boats" - the 3 designers that Southerly use are well known - and chosen - because they produce designs that perform well under sail. Suggest you read the reports on sailing the two types before you make unfounded comments about their comparative sailing qualities. At the moment your comments are worthless as you do not appear to have sailed either boat, never mind both.
When are you going to accept that twin rudders work and they are designed to take the weight of the boat? Designing effective rudders for wide beamed shallow hulled lifting keel boats is a challenge, but most designers have come to the conclusion that twin rudders are the best option. Again you need to read reports on their effectiveness, and you will find they are universally favourable. Compare that elegant solution with the agricultural mechanism used by Ovni.
This is not to say that Ovni is a "bad" boat. It was not designed with performance in mind, although it seems that the newer Marc Lombard designs are better performers. Many people believe that a shallow lightly ballasted boat with good form stability (such as the Ovni) is well suited to ocean voyaging, hence its popularity - but apart from having a lifting keel it is a completely different style of boat from a Southerly.
Frersfanatic
Member
Dear Mr. Ming, I only have experience of the S42 and the S47 and I can assure you that the sailing performance is excellent - I have never been a numbers man when it comes to sailing as I have enough of that with work. The S47 starts sailing usefully in 6 knots and achieves 8 knots in 8 knots of wind upwind. All of us like to sail in this forum. The lifting keel mechanisms on both are seaworthy as you say but I prefer to have some ballast in the keel. Based on my experience this result in a more upright faster boat.
Frersfanatic
Member
I respectfully disagree - the cost of the lift keel system is about 10% of the yachts total price, which results in an expensive yacht for its size. The maintenance is relatively simple as it's a electro-hydraulic lift up and a release under gravity on the way down. The dyneema pennant needs replacing every 8 years. However, owners are willing to pay the premium because you shallow draft opens up all sorts of wonderful opportunities and it really is fun to step down from the boat onto the beach.
Also has excellent safety advantages as a keel strike does not compromise the structure of the yacht - the keel rides up absorbing some of the impact - no keel bolts at risk of shearing off
AndrewfromFal
Well-Known Member
It's also worth noting that the newer Ovni's also sport twin rudders.
mrming
Well-Known Member
Are you talking 6 knots true? I have a swing keel boat (all ballast in the keel) and at 6 knots true I will have around ten knots apparent upwind as I'm doing 4 knots. I have an SA/D of 20. Now my boat only has a 20' waterline so as the wind increases bigger boats gradually get away, but in sub 8 knot conditions my little boat takes some catching.
Now the Southerly 42 has an SA/D of 14.92. If you are doing 8 knots upwind in 8 knots, I assume you mean 8 knots true and you're seeing 16 over the deck which is plenty to be getting on with. I put my first reef in the main at around 20 apparent.
What happens if you need to go on a broad reach in six knots of wind? What speed does the S42 achieve then?
My point is that the Ovni would be a better choice if you want to continue sailing in light weather.
I would say as well that the speeds and tacking angles quoted on this forum for heavy cruising boats are simply astonishing and it's amazing you don't see loads of them out on the race course cleaning up the silverware.
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
Very sad news, I had visited their facility in Itchenor several times recently as we had started doing work for them in the spring. Every invoice was paid in good time incidentally. They had some lovely looking boats in build but admitted not enough. There was a new 36 in the moulds they hoped to get ready for SIBs, never to be seen.
Seajet
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Tranona,
yet again you seek to attack with no real boat knowledge.
I would rather be in an Ovni in a gale than a Southerly, that's for sure !
This is based on meeting and sailing with owners of both.
Better luck next time...
yet again you seek to attack with no real boat knowledge.
I would rather be in an Ovni in a gale than a Southerly, that's for sure !
This is based on meeting and sailing with owners of both.
Better luck next time...