Northshore creditors meeting

[Tranona]

Tranona,

yet again you seek to attack with no real boat knowledge.

I would rather be in an Ovni in a gale than a Southerly, that's for sure !

This is based on meeting and sailing with owners of both.

Better luck next time...

I am afraid the lack of knowledge is on your part. You said that Southerlies had low ballast ratios. They DO NOT - why don't you look up the data instead of making untrue statements.

I suggest you arrange a meeting with either Stephen Jones or Rob Humphreys who might be able to explain to you the principles of yacht design. I have presented you with FACTS about stability and ballast ratios which show that you are fundamentally wrong in what you say. Sometimes I wonder why I bother as you clearly don't understand what those figures mean.

 

[AndrewfromFal]

Tranona,

I would rather be in an Ovni in a gale than a Southerly, that's for sure !

This is based on meeting and sailing with owners of both.

On their boats or other boats?

Was moored up next to an Ovni 435 in Scillies a few years ago, and given they've always been a boat I was interested in (Jimmy Cornell had one for a while, I believe); I managed to cadge an invitation to row over and have a look around. When talk turned to sailing characteristics he observed that although he found his boat comfortable and was pleased with his choice, it was 'nowhere near as fast as she looks'

 

[lw395]

On their boats or other boats?

Was moored up next to an Ovni 435 in Scillies a few years ago, and given they've always been a boat I was interested in (Jimmy Cornell had one for a while, I believe); I managed to cadge an invitation to row over and have a look around. When talk turned to sailing characteristics he observed that although he found his boat comfortable and was pleased with his choice, it was 'nowhere near as fast as she looks'

That can always be down to the design of the nut on the end of the tiller......

 

[Frersfanatic]

Are you talking 6 knots true? I have a swing keel boat (all ballast in the keel) and at 6 knots true I will have around ten knots apparent upwind as I'm doing 4 knots. I have an SA/D of 20. Now my boat only has a 20' waterline so as the wind increases bigger boats gradually get away, but in sub 8 knot conditions my little boat takes some catching.
)

Yes...talking 6 knots true - any less than that I would probably motor. That's good enough light wind performance for me.

 

[Frersfanatic]

Tranona,

I would rather be in an Ovni in a gale than a Southerly, that's for sure !

I have been in a high F8 gusting 9 in a Southerly and I felt perfectly safe. Onboard as well was an 85 year who enjoyed himself immensely. Down below one didn't even notice the noise outside and everyone slept soundly off watch. Southerly offered the counter intuitive advice that in "survival conditions" one should retract the keel so as to "slide down the waves" rather than trip over the keel and broach. Not sure about that although I can see the logic. In heavy weather weight definitely means comfort and that's why I like the high ballast ratios and high AVS - she was very stiff and well mannered at all times. The hull shape combined with twin rudders results in a well controlled and steady motion off the wind

 

[Tranona]

Southerly offered the counter intuitive advice that in "survival conditions" one should retract the keel so as to "slide down the waves" rather than trip over the keel and broach. Not sure about that although I can see the logic.

Nothing new in that advice. Maurice Griffiths was a great advocate of that principle going right back to the 1930's, mainly based on his experiences with lifting keel wide beam boats on the eastern US seaboard compared with the narrow deep heavily ballasted boats more common in the UK at the time. Had a big influence on his own designs, one of which the Golden Hind (shallow draft, high freeboard) was a boat of choice for choice for ocean voyaging in the 1970's and 80's. Well known for riding out bad weather by going with the seas rather than being washed over by them!

 

[Frersfanatic]

Interesting! Hopefully I won't need to try it out!

 

[AndrewfromFal]

In heavy weather weight definitely means comfort and that's why I like the high ballast ratios and high AVS - she was very stiff and well mannered at all times. The hull shape combined with twin rudders results in a well controlled and steady motion off the wind

Agreed......in anything with where the sea state is going to have a significant impact on the boat, the higher the AVS, the better.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Just an observation, Southerlies seem to have a huge wetted area which must contribute to stiffness and stability.

 

[mrming]

Just an observation, Southerlies seem to have a huge wetted area which must contribute to stiffness and stability.

...and also less than stellar sailing performance in light weather.

It's worth noting that the later generation of Southerlies designed by Jones / Humphries are much more sailing focused than the older designs.

That said if I ever get to the stage where I can afford a boat this size, I would not be looking at anything with such a small amount of canvas. What exactly is the problem with reefing?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Ironic that Southerly is being compared with Ovni. Ovni also went bust recently.

Is it that the market for lift keelers just isn't big enough to sustain builders?

Certainly I wouldn't pay a premium for the ability to picnic on a sandy beach once a year, or get myself stuck up a tidal creek where I'd have to wait for the next HW to get out. Given, too, that vast majority of boats in the Southerly price range are going to spend 99.5% of their time tied up in deep draught marinas.

 

[mrming]

Ironic that Southerly is being compared with Ovni. Ovni also went bust recently.

Is it that the market for lift keelers just isn't big enough to sustain builders?

Certainly I wouldn't pay a premium for the ability to picnic on a sandy beach once a year, or get myself stuck up a tidal creek where I'd have to wait for the next HW to get out. Given, too, that vast majority of boats in the Southerly price range are going to spend 99.5% of their time tied up in deep draught marinas.

Meanwhile Structures can't build enough Pogo 30s to satisfy demand and there's currently an 18 month waiting list. Perhaps a much simpler boat with more of a basic interior is more economical to build? I appreciate the only thing a Pogo has in common with a Southerly is it's lifting keel, but they certainly seem to be doing better on the business front. What's more, you certainly can't race a Pogo competitively on any handicap system I know of, so people must be buying them to cruise.

 

[fireball]

Ironic that Southerly is being compared with Ovni. Ovni also went bust recently.

Is it that the market for lift keelers just isn't big enough to sustain builders?

Certainly I wouldn't pay a premium for the ability to picnic on a sandy beach once a year, or get myself stuck up a tidal creek where I'd have to wait for the next HW to get out. Given, too, that vast majority of boats in the Southerly price range are going to spend 99.5% of their time tied up in deep draught marinas.

Oh come on - you know as well as I do that having a shallower keel helps - wait for the next HW? No, I managed to get past you without touching the bottom and then waited several hours for you to free yourself before we could have dinner ... now, if you'd got yourself a nice lifting keel vessel then you would've got in earlier and been there to catch my lines!

Actually, I think there's a huge benefit for having a shallow keel - purely for coastal sailing though - so long as it doesn't have a huge effect on sailing performance - it certainly allowed us to access areas before others as well as give us access that those with deeper keels just cannot reach. I did look at lift keels, but they were all a little too pricey at the time.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Actually, I think there's a huge benefit for having a shallow keel - purely for coastal sailing though - so long as it doesn't have a huge effect on sailing performance - it certainly allowed us to access areas before others as well as give us access that those with deeper keels just cannot reach. I did look at lift keels, but they were all a little too pricey at the time.

Precisely. Lift keels are too pricey for many (as well as me and you), thus the market is limited.

 

[Seven Spades]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the product at all they are well built and well designed. the main problem is there are not enough people around who can afford them. I really think it is a tragedy and I hope that some how they can come back again with a reduced range and costs taken out. Perhaps few boats but with a fixed keel option is all it would have taken to keep the company going I don't know. Having a fixed keel would increase the number of boats sold I have no doubt and they would be a lot cheaper.

 

[Frersfanatic]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the product at all they are well built and well designed. the main problem is there are not enough people around who can afford them. I really think it is a tragedy and I hope that some how they can come back again with a reduced range and costs taken out. Perhaps few boats but with a fixed keel option is all it would have taken to keep the company going I don't know. Having a fixed keel would increase the number of boats sold I have no doubt and they would be a lot cheaper.

I asked their head of design this exact question because it used to be an option. However, the way they build the boats now (or used to up until now) the keel box is an integral part of the mould and structure so they can't do both economically. Somebody will buy them - there is too much value in the IP, which is separate from the operating company.

 

[WestWittering]

I feel terribly sorry that Southerly are going. Following September 2012 boat show, I went on a factory tour last year and then out on a newish 32 that they had on brokerage. The 32 sailed beautifully in very little wind, self-tacking jib was great and then we just lowered the sails & drove up onto the beach, much to the surprise of the dog that was paddling on the edge of the water. Without exception every person I met there was enthusiastic about their product and looking forward to the future.

I am now in the market for a s/h 115 or 110 at the moment, especially following the dreadful saga of Cheeki Rafiki and having all that iron in the bottom plate certainly increases my confidence factor. A few of the other comments on here have also confirmed that I am looking for the right boat. No doubt Seajet will correct me

Anyway, as my local builder I am sorry they have gone and even till the day before the workers had no idea at all - that is from one of the horses mouths. It is very unlikely that the site will be used for housing - area of outstanding natural beauty, no school, shop or post office means that it falls outside the planning criteria. They may get away with one 'Super House' but the cost of the land would probably make that uneconomic & the midges would put quite a few people off. Maybe they will develop a small marine yard/marina. Maybe a buyer will step forward. Who knows.

Di

 

[WestWittering]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the product at all they are well built and well designed. the main problem is there are not enough people around who can afford them. I really think it is a tragedy and I hope that some how they can come back again with a reduced range and costs taken out. Perhaps few boats but with a fixed keel option is all it would have taken to keep the company going I don't know. Having a fixed keel would increase the number of boats sold I have no doubt and they would be a lot cheaper.

They seem to be very desirable to overseas buyers and the specs on the boats in build that I saw were nothing short of fabulous!!

Di

 

[Birdseye]

Except for all the Northshore customers who did not possess your ability to audit the corporate structure behind the sales front end.

Accounts at this level are very simple to understand. And if anyone is prepared to hand over £150k or more to a business without checking their credit rating or paying an accountant a couple of hundred to do so, then in my view they are fools. And a foll and his money.................. Though it has to be said that lots of other customers ordered in the years following my timidity and got their boats.

Unless something happened in the past 3 years I do not think Bavaria ever ceased trading or went into liquidation. Bavaria was a family owned business for 29 years, experienced organic growth in that period, a period in which Westerly Yachts went bust 3 times and rose phoenix like with with roughly the same operational setup.

After 29 years the family sold Bavaria to some investment outfit at an amazing valuation. A couple of years later when then credit crunch struck the debt associated with that external leveraged buyout was sold off highly discounted.

Exactly. Bav got into trouble and was bailed out - they do things a bit differently on the continent but not much differently. What the courts over there often do is to keep the business and employment going and throw the creditors to the wolves. Had one big french customer making agricultural equipment that that happened to 3 times. Referred to as Lazarus by me.

Quite what westerly has to do with it I dont know. They were operating in a different market both quality wise and geographically.

I think that the successive years of attack of the middle classes have taken a toll on this company.

The complete inverse is true. The last 20 years have seen an astonishing polarization of wealth, the top 10% are getting richer and Northshore appealed to a sophisticated fringe of yacht buyers who by definition are likely to be in that getting-richer-every-year 10%.

The underlying problem for Northshore is that is that people looked at the price tag, and then looked at what they got for the money and finally decided they were not prepared to fund the idyllic lifestyles of those who typically suckle off the income stream of a small time cult British yacht builder.

Tosh and more tosh. Yacht sales in the UK relate to the housing market, often the yacht being bought new is financed by the sale of a properrty. When the house market goes through one of its regular slumps, so do boat sales. And if you have invested all your spare cash in plant and facilities, you rapidly run out of working capital and go under. When recessions happen people sit on their wallets and stop buying whether boats or houses or cars or inde3ed holidays and white goods. I would love to blaim Balir or better still Broon, but really it wasnt their taxes so much as their recession. And even there I struggle to convince myself it was all their fault.

This is why they all struggled in the recession. The Swedish yards went the same way as Northshore. So did some of the volume builders.

 

[Birdseye]

Ironic that Southerly is being compared with Ovni. Ovni also went bust recently.

Is it that the market for lift keelers just isn't big enough to sustain builders?

Certainly I wouldn't pay a premium for the ability to picnic on a sandy beach once a year, or get myself stuck up a tidal creek where I'd have to wait for the next HW to get out. Given, too, that vast majority of boats in the Southerly price range are going to spend 99.5% of their time tied up in deep draught marinas.

Reckon your wrong there Ken. I dont know where you sail but I am Falmouth based summer and Cardiff winter, with a deep fin keel boat for the first time. And I find it very frustrating the way that a mere 1.9m draught stops me using many harbours. In the south west its maybe two out of every three that I cannot stop in oer low water.