North foreland sea state

[pjimd]

Please could I ask what the general view is for planning a smoothish passage around n. Foreland.
We have generally timed trips to coincide with lowish wind and slack tide but although sometimes completely flat (and lovely), sometimes have found really unpleasant conditions, with short standing waves that rearrange the boat contents and make the crew turn green....
We are usually in 10m mobo but also similar experience in 36ft cruising yacht

 

[Major_Clanger]

Very much depends on your starting/finishing points. What's the plan?

It's an interesting headland insofar as you've got two very different types of sea competing with one another; North Sea chop and the vague beginnings of a Channel swell. Assuming you're going south, then ensure the tide's under you (you'll carry it way down Channel if you get the timings right) regardless of wind. If it's blowing hard from the S, SW or W then take shelter in Ramsgate or Dover as ships have been doing for centuries.

Don't stand in too close to the headland, there's little to be gained and the sea just becomes more confused. If I'm going through the Downs, I'll still keep Elbow and Broadstairs Knoll on Stbd.

You're right though, it can be bloody horrible there! South Foreland even worse IMO!

 

[tillergirl]

Well Rule No 1 is 'stay well away from headlands'! If there has been some bad weather the previous day, expected the swell to carry on today and get even further out. I won't repeat MC's view other than to say that come to think of it, I have never not had a confused sea. Whoops, double negative - 'come to think of it I have always had a confused sea there!

 

[Concerto]

N Foreland can be rough with any N or E wind direction. There was plenty of NNE wind about F5/6 on Thursday when I sailed round and was rough. The sea should have settled by now. Personally I always find the Dover Straights rougher than N Foreland due to the funneling of the tide up the Channel to the 21 mile gap and meeting the tide coming down the North Sea.

 

[Gargleblaster]

I always find that South Foreland is worst when I am going away from the East Coast and North Foreland is worst when I am returning to the Medway/Thames Estuary. I was returning from the Azores in August having gone there and back without referring to charts and just two waypoints. I was delayed for two hours just south of Ramsgate when I ran aground coming up from one of my favourite anchorages off the Cinque Ports Gold Club. This meant I had lost a two hours of favourable tide in the Margate Channel and with a 25 knot Westerly bashing into wind over tide in a 25' boat I started to look for somewhere to anchor out of the wind and the chop without using charts. Finally around the top of the tide I found sufficient water and a bit of relief from the wind just east of Herne Bay but still enough chop to give me an uncomfortable night.

 

[pjimd]

Thank you. We are typically travelling between either the Thames/Chatham and Ramsgate or Eastbourne, usually via the Copperas. We do usually pass fairly close in to Long nose.
Now you mention it standing further off is pretty obvious and makes sense, as does the preceding weather.
We are planning a trip from Chichester back to the Thames via fuel stop in Ramsgate on Thurs/Fri this week so will plan a wider arc round the Elbow and cross the fingers....

 

[Pye_End]

Even on a fairly benign passage, Chatham to Ramsgate, the wind seems to pipe up from the south as you turn the corner and produce wind over tide, and it doesn't take very much breeze to produce an uncomfortable chop. Because of the cliffs there is funnelling there, and coming along the N Kent coast sometime gives a false sense of flatness. The good news is that it is not for long as the tide is strong so beating, or motor sailing with the main up, should make good progress. If the wind is from the north there is less of an issue as you should have wind with tide by then. In a mobo perhaps go for low water at about Margate, and try to choose a day with neap tides. If the wind is from the south and you are in a mobo with decent speed then it may well be that choosing to fight a north going tide will be flatter. Sometimes closer in round the corner is flatter - depends on the wind direction - but further out should be less confused. One advantage of a rag and stick in these situations is that it can provide some stability to the craft.

I agree that South Foreland is worse.

 

[Kukri]

I lost a rudder there in 1973. Very silly accident.

I do not like the place, and agree with others that it’s best to keep out to the Elbow buoy and leave that and the Broadstairs Knolls buoy to landward.

 

[jimi]

The area I found worst when heading west against a SW F5/6 was the Royal Sovereign shoals. That was truly horrible.

 

[Major_Clanger]

Youll

Thank you. We are typically travelling between either the Thames/Chatham and Ramsgate or Eastbourne, usually via the Copperas. We do usually pass fairly close in to Long nose.
Now you mention it standing further off is pretty obvious and makes sense, as does the preceding weather.
We are planning a trip from Chichester back to the Thames via fuel stop in Ramsgate on Thurs/Fri this week so will plan a wider arc round the Elbow and cross the fingers....

You'll probably overtake me.... I'm on the train to Dartmouth to collect a fairly big gaffer and bring her back to the Blackwater. With only 24in of freeboard it's going to be a wet trip!

 

[pjimd]

Well the n. Foreland was a pussy cat after all that, we left Ramsgate half hr before low water, aiming towards the elbow but found nigh on flat water so cut the corner towards the gore channel, light wind sunny and lovely.
(Slightly off putting seeing small breaking waves on the margate sand.....)
Arriving into ramsgate the day before was however totally different, f4 occasionally 5 sw with tide whipped up a bumpy sea, very glad to get into the harbour and tie up.

 

[tillergirl]

Pleased you had a pleasant passage at least one way. Your thread illustrates the peculiar nature of the Thames Estuary. It is all about the conditions and, indeed the time (tide). Have a look at the effect of the tide round the sands on a totally windless day:

Easterlies seem to me to particularly agitate the seas over banks. A swell over the banks competes with the tide and no rules apply. In the Spitway, a well marked swatch, on several days we had perhaps 10kts of wind but whilst any yacht, motor or sail, on passage wouldn't have batted an eyebrow (except perhaps 'bit lumpy there') but we cancelled trying get any accurate data as we pitched and rolled.

I think, reflecting on many passages across the Estuary, the North Foreland to Ramsgate sector is probably the most likely place to be uncomfortable (I am talking here about the Estuary). And having had to stop sailing I have learnt that a motor boat is a different kettle of fish. On a yacht, sailing in lively (and safe) conditions is a lot more pleasant than a motor boat.

 

[Kukri]

Thank you, Roger. A very interesting little film.

 

[pjimd]

Interesting. Normally we would plan to travel with little or ideally, no wind. The video clearly shows that doesn't necessarily equate to a smooth run!
And agreed, an inshore forecast "moderate" sea state is far more pleasant prospect in yacht than a planing mobo

 

[oldgit]

Coming round from Brighton to Medway on Thursday in a quickish Mobo. Refueling at Ramsgate.
Will decide when approaching N. Foreland as to if inshore or Princes route.
In rubbish weather its Princes everytime.
Can be a bit worrying about taking the inshore route, when in the far distance you can see the waves breaking on the Margate Sands with NE wind around LW, however when you get there, the sands shelter you from the wind and its ( usually) a smooth ride from there on in past Sheppey.
However.
My first time past Beachy Head/ Dungeness.
NW or SW forecast up to 10 Knots.

Pass close in or stay well off. ?
Any other tips.

 

[Kukri]

^You can go very close in passing Dungeness. Speaking for myself, I have not seen any significant disturbances in the sea here. You can almost literally go within a stone’s throw of the beach. Don’t follow the beach too far round to the westward, (why would you?) or you will annoy the Range Control Officer.

Beachy Head is a different matter. Keep very well clear of the Royal Sovereign shoals, and having done that, you might as well stay well out past Beachy Head, as there are some oddities in the bottom off the Head.^

 

[Major_Clanger]

Beachy Head is a different matter. Keep very well clear of the Royal Sovereign shoals, and having done that, you might as well stay well out past Beachy Head, as there are some oddities in the bottom off the Head.^

Sound advice..... Interesting that Royal Sovereign tower is due to be decommissioned (it's falling apart apparently). Beachy Head light will be upgraded but it still means that there'll be no welcoming loom once round Dungeness. Pity really, especially as BH isn't visible from the east until much closer. I always find the RS light very welcoming going down Channel and will miss it.

I won't ask what the 'oddities' in the bottom of BH might be!

 

[pjimd]

It seems state of the tide is probably key at both, at Dungeness the tss is only about 3 miles off the power station, plenty of depth close in but the range patrol lurks close to the beach when range operational, they are quite polite when asking you to do one?
We have always timed to pass dungeness as close to slack as we can, but sea often a bit agitated even then. The navionics app is v. useful.
Have found the sovereign shoals benign but perhaps we have just been lucky. Our neighbours did advise it can be pretty hateful in wind over tide.
Possibly another factor to consider may be mist/poor vis at this time of year, last Thursday the vis wasn't terrible, but even so we didn't see any land at all between selsey and just before dover. We don't have radar and had a major flap when the border force cutter appeared very close in and seemingly out of nowhere......

 

[oldgit]

Thanks all.
Weather still looking good windwise.
Hope to leave around HW and use the tide up to Ramsgate.

 

[Concerto]

You can go very close in passing Dungeness. Speaking for myself, I have not seen any significant disturbances in the sea here. You can almost literally go within a stone’s throw of the beach. Don’t follow the beach too far round to the westward, (why would you?) or you will annoy the Range Control Officer.

Reminds me of my first east bound passing of Dungerness in 1965. We were motoring in thick fog, so my father decided it would be wise to head for the sound of the Dungerness fog horn and when we hit the 4 fathom line we would turn due east for a short while. Well we saw the shore before we hit the 10 fathom line with all the fishermen rapidly winding in their lines as we were less than 30 yards from the shore. Then my father looked at his mackeral feathers we had lifted so the top one was out of the water and was delighted to see the other 5 hooks had 5 massive mackerals. A day never to be forgotten.