No Documents, No History, No CE.???

[Jim@sea]

In the UK I have been offered a 20ft American boat which I am thinking of buying. There are no documents. It is a private sale. I am a private buyer. It had been registered by a previous owner on the SSR and is about 10 years old. The Owner doesn't know if VAT has been paid.
The present owner reckons that all the receipts he was given when he bought the boat were lost when he had his car stolen as he had the stuff in his boot. He doesn't know if VAT has been paid.
I can believe this as I once stayed at a hotel with a "Secure Car Park" and my car was stolen with important documents which I had hidden under the seat.
Anyway, can I assume that on importation that VAT would have been charged, and if sold by a UK Importer that "CE" would have been applied.
Presumably it must be OK to sell an Imported boat without documents as last year I bought a 20 year old Bayliner from a well known Boat Dealer (Who takes Full Page Adverts in Magazines such as Motor Boats Monthly) who had taken it in PX. And I sold it on to a Boat Dealer in Gdansk who did not worry about taking it back from the UK without documents.

So What do I have to check. ?

 

[PaulGooch]

Not hard to get a boat from anywhere in the World to the UK without paying the VAT or getting it the CE paperwork done, so i wouldn't assume anything. In fact, it might be safer to assume the worst. SSR registration is meaningless here. I could get online right now and for £25 i can register my bath, without anyone making any checks at all.

 

[tinkicker0]

Take down the HIN and phone the importers of that particular boat. If only 10 years old they will probably have some documentation on it.

No it is not a problem buying a boat without docs, just make sure you get a proper bill of sale made out.

 

[spinreach]

On the VAT issue, theoretically there is a risk of HMRC calling, but in reality, unless they were investigating you for other reasons, why would they be interested in a 10 year old 20 footer which has been in the country for a few years already.

On the CE issue however, check if there is a CE plate in the boat. If there is a plate and it stacks up, then maybe the stolen paperwork story is valid. Without a plate, there is no CE as it is certainly possible for anyone to have sold on a boat without a valid CE, although, such an act is illegal.

Despite the illegality, my impression is up to a few years ago, the need for CE plates was deemed European beaurocracy gone mad and so was largely ignored. Whilst there hasn't been any recent clamp down on CE requirements, awareness of them has certainly grown and so as the 2nd hand boat market has tightened up, all factors of the sale / purchase have come under the spotlight resulting in probably fewer non CE sales now than a few years ago. So despite a reputable company being previously involved in selling the boat, I would not assume their credentials indicate the necessary CE registration exists.

 

[Jim@sea]

I have noticed on "Stolen Boats.org" That an identical boat (same make,model, and engine) was stolen in 2005. And they give the hull number. I think I will ask the seller what the hull number is.

 

[PaulGooch]

No self respecting broker would (should) be involved in the sale of a boat that doesn't have the necessary CE plate and paperwork. Most likely make it harder to sell in the future.

 

[EugeneR]

check if there is a CE plate in the boat.

+1

If the CE plate is there, it should have the name and address of the importer who can provide confirmation of whether tax was paid.
If it is not there then give it a skip or get a £1000 discount at least.

 

[timbartlett]

If "about ten years old" could mean "more than fourteen years old" then it wouldn't have a CE plate: the RCD didn't become compulsory until 1998.

 

[Spi D]

The HIN contains the year of manufacture so that will show if it possibly could be pre CE.

Notice that the CE demand is decided on date of import - not the boat age. A plate in the boat is not enough as every single sample must have a certificate, stating conformity.

Your best situation without papers would be if the boat is imported before 16. June 1998 (documented) as this would eliminate the need for CE.

The fact that some ignore CE (dealer or private) does not change that fact that you are responsible once you want to sell on.

 

[Antony Collis]

When I bought my boat I rang everyone you could ever think of about the VAT status as at that time I had no paperwork. Everyone said that there are no records kept against the HIN and without you keeping proof that the VAT was paid you might have to pay it again. I've since been lucky enough to find the importer and get a copy. Unless your going abroad I wouldn't worry to much. Pay little knowing you'll get little when you sell.

It's a good job we don't have to do all this for our cars!!!

 

[Whitelighter]

The fact that some ignore CE (dealer or private) does not change that fact that you are responsible once you want to sell on.

That's not true.

CE marking is specifically the responsibility of the person(s) or company that first put the vessel into use within the EU. Subsequent owners may find it hard to sell on, but the responsibility and therefor fault remains with the importer/first user.

 

[chanelyacht]

That's not true.

CE marking is specifically the responsibility of the person(s) or company that first put the vessel into use within the EU. Subsequent owners may find it hard to sell on, but the responsibility and therefor fault remains with the importer/first user.

I'd probably be more worried about the seller proving title rather than VAT status to start off with. Our local marine police unit are recovering more and more sold-on stolen boats, it's a very sad situation for the new "owners" who see their boat being taken away, and are left out of pocket considerably.

 

[jonic]

In the UK I have been offered a 20ft American boat which I am thinking of buying. There are no documents. It is a private sale. I am a private buyer. It had been registered by a previous owner on the SSR and is about 10 years old. The Owner doesn't know if VAT has been paid.
The present owner reckons that all the receipts he was given when he bought the boat were lost when he had his car stolen as he had the stuff in his boot. He doesn't know if VAT has been paid.
I can believe this as I once stayed at a hotel with a "Secure Car Park" and my car was stolen with important documents which I had hidden under the seat.
Anyway, can I assume that on importation that VAT would have been charged, and if sold by a UK Importer that "CE" would have been applied.
Presumably it must be OK to sell an Imported boat without documents as last year I bought a 20 year old Bayliner from a well known Boat Dealer (Who takes Full Page Adverts in Magazines such as Motor Boats Monthly) who had taken it in PX. And I sold it on to a Boat Dealer in Gdansk who did not worry about taking it back from the UK without documents.

So What do I have to check. ?

As a broker I wouldn't be touching that with a barge pole.

Aside from the CE and VAT issue I would be seriously concerned as to actual ownership. I have heard the papers stolen from my car tale a little too often.

Buyer beware.